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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,449 34.95%
No 5,524 55.98%
Undecided 895 9.07%
Voters: 9868. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-08-2009, 06:30 PM   #4501
DMoogle
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by AceCroupier View Post
So are you saying that K3 should never beat KK or only when you are in the hand?

No matter how rigged or not rigged a site may be, K3 still has a 7.16% chance of beating KK. So if you played the hand 1000 times, you'd lose ~71 times. This was one of those times, get over it.
That's only looking at preflop equities, which is a flawed way of looking at how you're running unless you were all-in preflop.
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:32 PM   #4502
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by AceCroupier View Post
So are you saying that K3 should never beat KK or only when you are in the hand?

No matter how rigged or not rigged a site may be, K3 still has a 7.16% chance of beating KK. So if you played the hand 1000 times, you'd lose ~71 times. This was one of those times, get over it.
actually, if you rig it, it won't win that often. that's how you can tell whether or not it's legit.
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:37 PM   #4503
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Also K13 I'm still awaiting your database screenshots.
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:10 PM   #4504
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Re: What site has more bad beats??

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Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
This is very interesting but my choices are FTP and Cake. Not Stars. I have played primarily on cake and am just getting sick of the things that I am seeing and am considering switching over to FTP. This is why I ask
Your post is ******ed and I was hoping you were too and were trying to get you to play on PokerStars where I do, but I have failed.
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:18 PM   #4505
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Its beyond pathetic.

KK vs K3

Can't even ****en win that preflop

next 99 < 98

like beyond ****en bull****

**** you to all the non rigged people

Not even 50% with QQ, KK vs Ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
KK is automatic loss pre, and not to AA. So ****en bull****.

How the **** can you ten times in a row with it pre-flop? Why do these one in a million probabilites happen every single day. In less than a 1000 hands.

Why the **** am i even getting KK so many times in like 234 hands?
Honest to ****ing god, dude:

Beats, Brags, and Variance

This isn't your personal blog of your selected bad beats. They prove nothing, and just make all the rest of the people on here trying to argue with some logic (emphasis on trying) look worse by association.

I just noticed "Location: Canada", which I don't recall seeing before. While it makes me sad to see a compatriot making a fool of himself here, it also makes me wonder, WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING???

You think Stars is rigged, and then your next choice is super-shady Cereus. You can play on just about any poker site on the Internet, and you choose one you're convinced is rigged and one that has admitted to allowing super users. There are tonnes of sites that are as soft or softer, that have as good or better bonus/VIP/rakeback programs, yet you play at those two sites.

Last thing, there is no such word as ****en. Do you mean ****ing? Or ****in'? I've seen you type it probably a few hundred times now (all in relation to another one of your lame bad beat stories, LDO), so I thought you might like to know.
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:23 PM   #4506
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Re: What site has more bad beats??

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Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
You obv havent read my original question. I asked about FTP and Cake. Nothing else. All I needed from people was 1 word answers but I guess that is too complicated for people
Full. Oh, chit, wait, that's going to be three words. Cake. Eff, nope, that's gonna be two words. Pokerstars? Hey, yup, that's one word.

Seriously? Full Tilt, and it's not even close.
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Old 06-08-2009, 07:24 PM   #4507
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Re: What site has more bad beats??

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Originally Posted by EdmontonRounder View Post
Alright, can we just merge this into the "Online is Rigged" thread already???
I just got here, and at first I thought maybe this thread might have belonged on its own:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
I am not talking about rigged cheating sites lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
Im not saying its rigged
But then we got into this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
but I do believe that some sites are more fair than others because their RNGs are different. As you can see there was already a study done that proved stars had 11% less bad beats. So you sir are the idiot
Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakYaNeck View Post
I feel that I can whine about these beats. I am a winning player and variance is one thing but beat after beat after beat is just becoming absurd. I mean the math proves that this stuff doesnt continuously happen. I dont believe that the Random Number Generators are completely random as Stars and FTP use very different types of RNGs
So yeah, a merge it is.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:00 PM   #4508
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Re: Campaign against PokerStars

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Originally Posted by Prav View Post
PokerStars is so obviously rigged. It's not too difficult to prove.
Someone must punish them. I begin a campaign against PokerStars (PS).
My intention is to prove that the software is rigged, at least in SNG and MTT.

The plan:
1)Get enough hand histories (HH) from the players willing to take part.
2)Create software for analysis of the data.
3)Prove mathematically that the outcomes of all-ins are biased.
4)Find a lawyer to prepare and file a lawsuit against PS.
5)Get compensation from PokerStars, prevent them from cheating in future.

Some details of the plan:

1)HH
I estimate HH of about 10,000 SnGs and about 3,000 MTT tourneys will suffice to get mathematical evidence.

2)Software
Alon Albert has almost ready software for the task. I will ask his help. Can anyone else help?

3)Mathematical prove
The idea is to collect statistics on all-ins, draw closing, flop cards, etc. Compare actual outcomes to probabilities. Get deviations using normal approximation method. If the deviation exceeds the reasonable level, it will prove that the PS software is rigged.

What exactly seems to be rigged?

a) Big stack advantage
PS software gives advantage to big stacks. In SnGs, I estimate the big stack win allins about 1.5% more often, then it is supposed to based on equity. In MTT the advantage of big stacks is much bigger, it's just ridiculous.
Especially, there's a type of preflop allins I call «domination by pocket pair» (AA vs AK, KK vs TT, QQ vs JT, etc).
According to my statistics in SnG games, the average equity of such all-ins is 84%/16%. Then big stack dominates short one, it wins in about 84% cases which is normal. Then big stack is dominated, it wins about 25% allins although supposed to win only 16%! Everyone can check by himself.

b) Allin luck
I believe every player with ROI > 0 eventually ends up with the lack of luck, i.e. his actual win is less than expected. There may be 2 explanations. Either PS gives more luck to losing players to keep them playing (see below), or some players are the room's bots (which is outright robbery). Of course, if we provide 100 unlucky players, PS can always claim there are 200 lucky players outwhere, so this can't be an evidence. But we can take a certain player and estimate the probability of his «unluckiness». If the probability is little enough, say less than 0.1%, this is the ground for accustaion. The data needed for the math analysis: list of allins with equity and outcome, number of allins.

c) Cashout curse
After every cashout the player is likely to face a downstreak. Have to check allin luck during 500 tourneys after every cashout.

d) Weak hands
Weak hands win a little bit more often than they should. Thus PS encourages bad players.
Need to analyse allins 60%+ vs 40%-.

e) Draws
Flush and straight draws close too often, encouraging bad play.

Proving at least one point of above a)-e) will be enough to sue PS.

4)Lawyer
I'm sure there are lawyers among players who would like to handle it. I have one reference already.

5)Compenstaion
I have an idea how to estimate the loss. Plus moral compensation of course.
I suppose if the lawsuit is prepared properly, PS will offer compensation pre-trial.

The ones willing to join the project, please contact me by email:
ROONEY [a] BK [dot] RU

I can see this is going to be a completely unbiased study.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:43 PM   #4509
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
Also K13 I'm still awaiting your database screenshots.
Someone send me a copy of PT cause my trial version expired, is there any free program I can use to upload my hand histories?
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:53 PM   #4510
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=200902210639326
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:56 PM   #4511
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Aces come on the board way too often on PS. Espacially when 2 or 3 people have an ace already.

Check your datebases yourself.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:08 PM   #4512
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Someone send me a copy of PT cause my trial version expired, is there any free program I can use to upload my hand histories?
are you kidding? put your HH's in a folder, zip them and use like YouSendIt.com or something.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:10 PM   #4513
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Someone send me a copy of PT cause my trial version expired, is there any free program I can use to upload my hand histories?
Sending you a free copy of PT would be illegal. There is no reason why anyone who plays as many hands as you do shouldn't invest in such a ridiculously +EV piece of software. Do you keep a spreadsheet to track your winnings and losses?
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:20 PM   #4514
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post

Having said that from the technicality viewpoint you have to accept that hardware engineers see this from not philosophical but practicality point of view, the product needs to pass the QA process and be released to production and during the design process that problem is addresses by designing into the system the logic that makes impossible that such complex data structure like the two hands being repeated, and the Intel hardware RNG by design would not produce that data.
Please refer to the module design documentation to get more detailed information on this topic. You can download Intel hardware RNG drivers and SDK from Intel as well.
First off, just in case you were curious using a bunch of big words doesnt make you any smarter.

You seem to have a problem understanding that RNG means anything can happen. Showing two card sets logically cannot prove that the RNG is flawed.

In fact, if you understand that RNG means that it is RANDOM, much like a coin flip, you would realize that you could see the exact hand 40 times in a row without any flaws in the RNG.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:40 PM   #4515
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Aces come on the board way too often on PS. Espacially when 2 or 3 people have an ace already.

Check your datebases yourself.
You muppet, a data set was published in this thread a few pages ago which precisely disproved this idiotic assertion.

In actual fact, aces slightly less often on the flop (since when there is a flop, people are more likely to have aces in their hand).

This post of yours - seeking data on flops just after it is posted - makes me believe that you're maliciously idiotic, rather than just ignorant.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:42 PM   #4516
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

BTW, the data is here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=4187
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:43 PM   #4517
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Aces come on the board way too often on PS. Espacially when 2 or 3 people have an ace already.

Check your datebases yourself.
Now that you have been proven wrong on that false claim, will you admit that you were wrong?
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:56 PM   #4518
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Josem, incidentally those happen to be PS hands, showing that Aces flop (and turn and river) less than any other card, as expected due to the removal effect you described.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:57 PM   #4519
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Josem, incidentally those happen to be PS hands. Showing that Aces flop (and turn and river) less than any other card, as expected due to the removal effect you described.
Well that's fine because he specifically stated PS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Aces come on the board way too often on PS. Espacially when 2 or 3 people have an ace already.

Check your datebases yourself.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:53 AM   #4520
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Josem, incidentally those happen to be PS hands, showing that Aces flop (and turn and river) less than any other card, as expected due to the removal effect you described.
QFT.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:59 AM   #4521
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I swear I've just got done with a stretch that had me questioning everything. And I've played 50k sngs or so.

The only reason I still don't believe PS is rigged is because as a computer programmer I know how hard something like that would be to program AND keep secret, also a giant team of people to manage who gets boomed and who gets doomed, etc. Either that or complicated algorithms that someone had to set up and maintain (weekend vs. week, new player vs. old, 12-tabler vs 2-tabler, etc.). Keeping that **** under wraps as part of a computer program as complicated as a poker site, AND still balancing all the allins so that no major statistical anomalies show up would be pretty much impossible.

But it's literally been like an act of faith for me to force my reason to win out over what my gut is screaming at me as I lose set after set after set after set. I can understand where just about anyone who isn't a computer programmer or 2p2 devotee would start to question riggedness during a run like this. I don't see how you couldn't.
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:24 AM   #4522
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

standard deviation + risk of losing money = good conditions for a person to believe in rigging. Personal loss will turn otherwise sensible people into irrational finger-pointers.
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:30 AM   #4523
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Are any winning players complaining about rigging?
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:51 AM   #4524
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Are any winning players complaining about rigging?
Some of the rigtards here claim to be winning players, but conveniently they never provide screen names.
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:44 AM   #4525
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
That's only looking at preflop equities, which is a flawed way of looking at how you're running unless you were all-in preflop.
He was.



On a different note, i played 480 hands last night and cracked Aces or Kings every time i was 3bet holding a smaller pocket pair. (JJ and under)
Must be rigged, not complaining.
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