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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
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Old 06-06-2009, 08:44 PM   #4351
PokErasmus
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Commandment 1: Thou shalt ask others to prove it false

Commandment 2: Thou shalt state an opinion and declare it a fact

Commandment 3: Thou shalt hurl personal attacks

Commandment 4: Thou shalt assume

Commandment 5: Thou shalt have no time to test thy theories

Commandment 6: Thou shalt support they brethren unconditionally

with one of the better quotes so far being


That's what close minded paranoia is all about. Goes good with a soft drink.
Would you stop flood this thread with your long commandment crap please and let people talk about rigged poker site which is the topic of the thread?

Your commandment crap is not funny, not creative, and not even entertaining and no one read it anyway. I understand your feelings hurt that facts have been revealing about poker site criminals, but you have to accept that.

Here are clear evidences appear that PS’s software is not random, not using the RNG module that claimed by PS and PS nothing else than a multibillion dollar fraud.

Please try to familiarize yourself with the reality: PS criminals operate a rigged site.
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Old 06-06-2009, 08:50 PM   #4352
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

LOL MindControlaments
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Old 06-06-2009, 08:57 PM   #4353
PokErasmus
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post

Technically this is another "technical fact." They are fun. They never provide any actual logic or reasoning or data, but they sound so techy.

"

You have no idea about software, what kind of data the Intel hardware RNG produces and how it interacts with software ... you are just a broken personality who rants in internet forums about something which you have no knowledge whatsoever.

Here are the facts again: if the software would really rely on the Intel hardware RNG the submitted results could never ever happen. It is clear the Intel hardware RNG is not used by PS, they simply lie about the random software saying “we obtain the required amount of entropy from Intel RNG” as PS's website states.

Classical and simple fraud by the Madoff type of people.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:00 PM   #4354
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Would you stop flood this thread with your long commandment crap please and let people talk about rigged poker site which is the topic of the thread?
Seriously.
Every time somebody makes a valid point they try to cover it up by spewing nonsense about Lizard People, Commandments, Muppets, ect...
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:12 PM   #4355
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Would you stop flood this thread with your long commandment crap please and let people talk about rigged poker site which is the topic of the thread?

Your commandment crap is not funny, not creative, and not even entertaining and no one read it anyway. I understand your feelings hurt that facts have been revealing about poker site criminals, but you have to accept that.

Here are clear evidences appear that PS’s software is not random, not using the RNG module that claimed by PS and PS nothing else than a multibillion dollar fraud.

Please try to familiarize yourself with the reality: PS criminals operate a rigged site.
I didn't post that commandment stuff, so I don't understand why you edited the quote to make it look like I did.


Further, the idea that a particular hand is impossible under a random shuffling process is self-evidently false - the whole idea of a random shuffle is that any combination is possible. That's the goal of a random shuffle.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:13 PM   #4356
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
Seriously.
Every time somebody makes a valid point they try to cover it up by spewing nonsense about Lizard People, Commandments, Muppets, ect...
lol, I have yet to see one of these valid points
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:18 PM   #4357
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post

The idea that there's a massive international criminal conspiracy here - which is simultaneously detectable by "feel" but not by statistical analysis - is just plain idiotic.
This is very well said and I agree 100%.
The only answer I can give is nobody has done a thorough statistical analysis of all the variables involved in the game.
Sure heads up All-in EV calculations are done all the time but I would like to see something a little more complete than that.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:19 PM   #4358
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post

See, these two completely different hands can never happen. Ever! Why?
Because the Intel hardware RNG by design and architecture would not submit such data that results in the submitted hand, as Intel hardware RNG evidently, proven and in fact produces random data.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:22 PM   #4359
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Because the Intel hardware RNG by design and architecture would not submit such data that results in the submitted hand, as Intel hardware RNG evidently, proven and in fact produces random data.
wat
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:27 PM   #4360
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Because the Intel hardware RNG by design and architecture would not submit such data that results in the submitted hand, as Intel hardware RNG evidently, proven and in fact produces random data.
lol wut

If it did not produce hands like the ones that were posted, then it would not be random.

Wow, WTF am I even doing wasting my time with you?
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:35 PM   #4361
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
I didn't post that commandment stuff, so I don't understand why you edited the quote to make it look like I did.
Sorry for that, I was going to answer for the Monterroy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Further, the idea that a particular hand is impossible under a random shuffling process is self-evidently false - the whole idea of a random shuffle is that any combination is possible. That's the goal of a random shuffle.
From philosophical and logical viewpoint yes, you are quite right about the nature of randomness. Off course anything can happen.

Having said that from the technicality viewpoint you have to accept that hardware engineers see this from not philosophical but practicality point of view, the product needs to pass the QA process and be released to production and during the design process that problem is addresses by designing into the system the logic that makes impossible that such complex data structure like the two hands being repeated, and the Intel hardware RNG by design would not produce that data.
Please refer to the module design documentation to get more detailed information on this topic. You can download Intel hardware RNG drivers and SDK from Intel as well.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:47 PM   #4362
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
lol wut

If it did not produce hands like the ones that were posted, then it would not be random.
I have never said Intel hardware Rng does not produce random data. It does perfectly. PS just not using it as the exclusive card distribution data source.

All I said is that the two submitted deeals are not based on random data nor based on the Intel hardware Rng. The software simply has reused the similar resources. It might due to a synchronization primitive error or algorithms that overwrites the card distribution, but clearly indicates that top on the random module a handler CAN and DOES distribute cards in not random manner.
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:49 PM   #4363
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
The software simply has reused the similar resources.
If you're saying what I think you're saying, then you have no evidence of that. Stuff getting the same hand twice in a row (not that they were the same hand) doesn't happen more than it should.

Show me otherwise.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:01 PM   #4364
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I forget, was PokErasmus the one who earlier said that the bigger a sample is, the less you can tell it's rigged, or is this now two people who've come up with that awesome theory?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
The odds of these 2 hands playing out the way they did are about 1/500,000,000.

Maybe it was just a random occurance but I don't think you guys realize how remote of a chance this has of happening.
I suck at calculating odds so I'll just assume you're right, which means it's happened about 50 times on Stars.

1 in 500 million seems a bit much, though, although most people probably aren't going to get all in pre with A267 so I guess that might explain it.
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Old 06-07-2009, 12:48 AM   #4365
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Probably because of my limited English, but it seems you can’t deal with a simple formal logic formula.

The statement was: any hands that produced by any manipulated software perfectly fit into the multibillion hands sample. If the product of any manipulated software fits into the sample, if the manipulated elements are legitimate members of the sample, than the sample cannot be used to prove that the site is not rigged.

I suggest please disprove this logical formula instead of getting emotional about who is dump and who is smart.
How about confidence testing? Take millions of small sample sets (which we are doing) and compare them to the larger sample.

A fair RNG would produce expected results a large percentage (>95%) of the time. Repeated sampling increases the confidence in the hypothesis that the RNG is not rigged.

A rigged RNG would produce expected results less often, thus leading us to believe that the RNG is not fair.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:33 AM   #4366
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I played NL Holdem today for the first time in about a year, (usually play O8) and I saw about 200 hands.

Twice I hit 2 outers on the river, and once I hit a 3 outer.
The funny thing is it would have been pretty hard to find a fold in any of the 3 hands.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:34 AM   #4367
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by BucketFoot View Post
A+ post sir. You have enlightened me to realize my own stupidity
Well, someone had to.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:37 AM   #4368
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
Monteroy and others, I give you a lot of credit for being able to respond to all of the crackpot theories and statements made in this thread. I concluded long ago though after providing logical and detailed responses about 100 times that most of these people can't be reasoned with. From here on out it's a maximum of 3 lines and/or a picture of kermit.
Welcome to the retired rigtard debunking club.

Tea and coffee to your left. Ice cream sammiches to your right.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:42 AM   #4369
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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... and looks like qpw burned out (not shocking).
If you look back over these threads from the past years you'll see quite a few people who've 'burned out'.

There's only so much time any rational person is prepared to spend creating logical arguments or even just taking the p out of these idiots.

Especially when a fresh intake appears just about every week.

I notice the names of the 'tards have pretty much changed since I started my 'holiday'. In a month or so there will be a fresh set. And so it will go on.

Nice work on the commandments list, BTQ.
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:46 AM   #4370
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
.... during the design process that problem is addresses by designing into the system the logic that makes impossible that such complex data structure like the two hands being repeated, and the Intel hardware RNG by design would not produce that data.
Please refer to the module design documentation to get more detailed information on this topic. You can download Intel hardware RNG drivers and SDK from Intel as well.
Is this a new rigtard tactic?

Say something that is completely 100% wrong and even provably so, and hope that no-one can be bothered to check it out?
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:49 AM   #4371
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I think we should reply to every post they make with "You're so right! I lose my ass, too! Rigged 100%"
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:11 AM   #4372
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

has anyone ever thought that sites are not actually rigged on purpose? but that they have poor algorithms in use?
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:13 AM   #4373
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by tvstealer View Post
has anyone ever thought that sites are not actually rigged on purpose? but that they have poor algorithms in use?
this is addressed in the FAQ of this forum. please read it - you are likely to find it interesting.
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Old 06-07-2009, 05:43 AM   #4374
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Your sample is clear evidence of the manipulated and not random software. Sort of same hands happened to me and I've posted that hands as well in this thread, it just simply indicates that their software is cannot be further from randomness, it is manipulated. It’s obviously evident to any sane individual over age 8 with IQ over 80 – only the site defender blind-crusaders afraid to admit the reality. The crusaders are hypnotized by the multibillion hand sample, which by the way would not be affected from the manipulated hands like yours or mine. The two hands you have posted, the hands I have posted are perfectly fits into the multibillion hands sample - in fact any hands perfectly fits into that sample, therefore the crusaders’ main argument that the multibillion hands sample is the evidence that the sites are not rigged is useless. Using the multibillion hands sample to prove that PS is not rigged is simply a logical fallacy. As the nature of poker, these manipulated hands are perfectly valid elements of the multibillion hands sample, the crusaders multibillion hands sample proves nothing.

Anyway, the manipulated and not random software is a pretty powerful tool in the hand of PS criminals. That’s why it would be so important what I have been pointing out in my previous posts: put in place verified, fully audited, source code controlled software systems in order to make sure that the game is not compromised by manipulated software components at any levels.

The criminals who operate the multibillion dollar scam in the form of Poker Star must follow Madoff, the fraudster. Same origin, same crime, should be same the punishment as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
I can't believe you don't realize how dumb you look using the multibillion hands sample as your "evidence".

If a write a software that not randomly produces the submitted two hands, the two hands will still perfectly fit into your sample, therefore the multibillion hands sample proves nothing, except how dumb you look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Probably because of my limited English, but it seems you can’t deal with a simple formal logic formula.

The statement was: any hands that produced by any manipulated software perfectly fit into the multibillion hands sample. If the product of any manipulated software fits into the sample, if the manipulated elements are legitimate members of the sample, than the sample cannot be used to prove that the site is not rigged.

I suggest please disprove this logical formula instead of getting emotional about who is dump and who is smart.

You continue to criticise peoples understanding of software engineering and may (or may not) be more knowledgeable on this subject than many of the people responding to you. Perhaps you should therefore be willing to accept criticism of your knowledge of statistics and probabilty from people who are carrying out the "multibillion hand samples" and clearly are more knowledgeable on this subject than you.

I am going to put this bit in bold for you as you seem to find it so effective:

Please stop saying that any hands can fall into a multibillion hand sample that appears random while using the existence of those very hands as evidence of rigging.
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:28 AM   #4375
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I just wonn 8 SNG's in a row on AP. Calculate the odds on that.

obv rigged.
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