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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,445 34.94%
No 5,522 56.00%
Undecided 893 9.06%
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:11 PM   #3951
NFuego20
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I said nothing about respect. I said credibility. It probably helps when you're going to make generalized posts to at least have the facts straight. In your first hand it was 81/19 assuming no flush draws were involved, which is quite a bit off from 90/10.

And if you're putting your entire roll on the line in situations like that, I strongly suspect you haven't played nearly enough hands to have any kind of decent sample size. In that case all it takes is one bad beat to bust you. Not very wise. Have you ever seen a pitcher get a base hit in a baseball game? Was it rigged for him when he did? What you are providing is not evidence, so like all the other rigtards out there you point fingers without a shred of proof. You are a conspiracy theorist.

Last edited by NFuego20; 05-28-2009 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:13 PM   #3952
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by blue duck View Post
sorry i don't need or want your respect..

what odds do i not understand ? the 90% is favored to win?

so what your saying is put your money in with 5 outs?

great plan .. forget the "put your money in when you are
ahead".. that's b.s..

put your money in when you are way behind .. ..i like it
I bet you didn't know this, but 10% of the time you are a 90% favorite, you will lose.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:41 PM   #3953
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Is that the analisys you are going to make in that 1 billion database?
No, I was suggesting how you can analyse the AA hands you described.

Quote:
I have a doubt, I think didnt understand what you said at the final of the post, is it not possible to make an analisys of non all in situations?
You may be referring to what I was editing and I deleted another thought I had. But if they go to showdown, of course you can, you just compare preflop showdown equity against showdown wins. The board cards don't care what bets were made and they fall the same as they would on a preflop all-in. You just can't count the times you win (or lose) before a showdown. There may be some special cases where another player was in the hand to the flop or turn but folded before showdown, I'll have to think about that one some more and see if it affects anything.

Last edited by spadebidder; 05-28-2009 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:35 AM   #3954
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
No, I was suggesting how you can analyse the AA hands you described.



You may be referring to what I was editing and I deleted another thought I had. But if they go to showdown, of course you can, you just compare preflop showdown equity against showdown wins. The board cards don't care what bets were made and they fall the same as they would on a preflop all-in. You just can't count the times you win (or lose) before a showdown. There may be some special cases where another player was in the hand to the flop or turn but folded before showdown, I'll have to think about that one some more and see if it affects anything.
There´s a lot of situations when a good player with good reading skills will fold the hand before the showdown. For example I get AA raise and get 1 caller Cbet and get reraised, choose to fold putting him in a better hand and he shows 2 pair. In these cases if he does not show the hand it will be impossible to be sure the favorite hand at the flop, lets say, was cracked in the turn or not. So would be impossible any statistical analisys.
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Old 05-29-2009, 02:13 AM   #3955
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
I actually think the majority of people in this thread would admit they don't know, but that the likelyhood of the sites being rigged is pretty low based primarily on the fact that people have been screaming about this stuff after bad beats forever, and statistically nothing has been proven that shows anything out of the ordinary. Most people making definitive claims one way or another are the ones saying that the sites are rigged and directly accusing them of it without evidence. Again those people's best defense when confronted is to ask us to prove a negative, which is just such a flawed argument it's laughable.
This.
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It is a small sample, but you still need to measure against the actual equity of the hands that you were up against, not against the mean for random hands. If your software can't do that, you could look up all 131 (including their suits and yours) in Poker Stove, and see what the actual average equity was, and you may find it to be closer to the 73.3 than to the 85%. You can also create a program to do it automatically from your list if you know how, lots of open source stuff is available. Your sample may not be large enough to converge right on the number, but with 131 hands it should be pretty close, and I guarantee it won't be 12% off.

Once you have the equity number, you can use the binomial distribution to figure out the chance of various number of +/- wins from the mean, and you can also calculate how many SD you are from the mean. Anything within 2 SD should be considered very normal. When you get close to 3 you would either be running very bad or very good, but still not that improbable. More than that and you start questioning what's wrong.
You're looking at this the wrong way. If, for example, an opponent only gets to showdown with two pair or better, and you never fold your aces, then you'll be winning far less than 85% of the time, even less than 50% of the time.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:06 AM   #3956
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
This.


You're looking at this the wrong way. If, for example, an opponent only gets to showdown with two pair or better, and you never fold your aces, then you'll be winning far less than 85% of the time, even less than 50% of the time.
When I used to play online, I would lose with the best hand both preflop and flop 70 percent of the time.

People who play online are ******ed. If profits are not big enough for you at a live house play higher limits. Anything is better then a stacked deck.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:08 AM   #3957
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFuego20 View Post
I said nothing about respect. I said credibility. It probably helps when you're going to make generalized posts to at least have the facts straight. In your first hand it was 81/19 assuming no flush draws were involved, which is quite a bit off from 90/10.

And if you're putting your entire roll on the line in situations like that, I strongly suspect you haven't played nearly enough hands to have any kind of decent sample size. In that case all it takes is one bad beat to bust you. Not very wise. Have you ever seen a pitcher get a base hit in a baseball game? Was it rigged for him when he did? What you are providing is not evidence, so like all the other rigtards out there you point fingers without a shred of proof. You are a conspiracy theorist.
Let's all bask in the intellectual genious that is NFUEGO20. We all know that the sharpest minds in the world come from OHIO.

Must be all that rust and unemployment there.

By the way. It's rather fitting that your avatar is of Kermit the Frog, since your intelligence level is most likely on par with those who watch Sesame Street.

Last edited by lolapoker; 05-29-2009 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:19 AM   #3958
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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because we've been over this thousands of times: online poker is not rigged.


fish will think this because they dont know any better--they're stupid. that's why they're fish. that's why you need to stop chasing them away with garbage like this.

so stop killing online poker and wasting our time
No, you're stupid. Thats why you play online poker for a living instead of having a real job.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:30 AM   #3959
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Blah blah blah
...
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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
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Originally Posted by lolapoker View Post
AP was an isolated case, and notice they don't advertise here.
You have the order backwards. AFAIK, 2+2 doesn't take their ads because of the scandal. I know for certain they dropped support of AP and UB from the hand converter for this reason.

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You spout out that stars is rigged, or any other advertiser here and you will get banned.
Really? Who are all these banned posters? Oh, let me guess, their posts are all deleted so you can't provide any proof.

So do you have any explanation why SooperFish, tk1133, PokErasmus, and many others are still here? Some of them have been posting in this thread for months.

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Also know that the majority of long time posters here are also affiliates and have the same interest.
Um yeah, OK. Another outlandish claim without proof. Sigh.
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Old 05-29-2009, 04:36 AM   #3960
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Re: The Outside Looking In? Online Poker

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Originally Posted by lolapoker View Post
No, you're stupid. Thats why you play online poker for a living instead of having a real job.
[x] terrible bump
[ ] playing online poker means we don't have a job
[x] you are a troll
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:13 AM   #3961
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by lolapoker View Post
Let's all bask in the intellectual genious that is NFUEGO20. We all know that the sharpest minds in the world come from OHIO.

Must be all that rust and unemployment there.

By the way. It's rather fitting that your avatar is of Kermit the Frog, since your intelligence level is most likely on par with those who watch Sesame Street.
lol, there's a good new approach... disqualify an argument based on where a person is from. I'd come up with something intelligent in response to this post, but you've pretty much buried yourself with it.

I have a college degree and spent several years working for Big Four accounting firms. Of course, my perfectly logical post does not need to have any kind of educational background behind it. It makes sense on its own.

And Kermit is a muppet. You also are a muppet. See how well that works?
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:15 AM   #3962
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Also.... some irony here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolapoker View Post
Let's all bask in the intellectual genious that is NFUEGO20. We all know that the sharpest minds in the world come from OHIO.
Please let us know where you're from so we can give your location a bad name.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:56 AM   #3963
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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When I used to play online, I would lose with the best hand both preflop and flop 70 percent of the time.
if you can provide HH's to back up that claim that would go a long way.

thanks in advance,
mark
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:39 AM   #3964
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by DMoogle View Post
This.


You're looking at this the wrong way. If, for example, an opponent only gets to showdown with two pair or better, and you never fold your aces, then you'll be winning far less than 85% of the time, even less than 50% of the time.
I think you're correct, I've been working on that problem, and it turns out preflop equity comparison vs. wins seems to only be valid when you are all-in and have exactly one caller. I'm still thinking about it.

toltec444 - if this is correct, you need to further filter your sample to preflop all-ins with one caller only to have a valid comparison. That's what I've done with my larger analysis, I was just working on the issue of whether other hands can be analysed similarly.

Last edited by spadebidder; 05-29-2009 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:43 AM   #3965
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

http://www.thepokerbank.com/is-online-poker-rigged.html

Theory: The online rooms fix the cards so that the bad players will get luckier to stop them from losing too much money and leaving the room. The rooms want to keep as many players as possible so that they generate more rake, so by fixing the cards to make it ‘fairer’ for the bad players, they will able to make more money for themselves.

Explanation: The chances of a room fixing cards to help the bad players save money are almost non-existent. Only when you start to think about the side effects of such a system can you appreciate the absurdity of such a theory. If a room is helping a bad player from losing money, at the same time the room will be taking this money from the good players to compensate. Therefore there would be no such thing as the online pros that make a living from playing online poker, because they will find it too difficult to win money due to a ‘fair’ system.

In addition, the site would have to scrap the use of its RNG and design a system that is able to detect a losing player and be able to deliver ‘good hands’ to those players. Not only would this be incredibly difficult for the sites to create, but it would also be illegal. If a site were found to be utilizing such a system to help make them more money, they would incur a staggering amount of fines and be heavily prosecuted. The poker rooms know this and so it would be dangerously unwise for them to even consider using such a system.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:47 AM   #3966
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

i think NFuego20 is just sour because his mom made him clean his room ..
or maybe he's angry because he lives in Ohio .. i would be too ..
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:53 AM   #3967
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

online poker 2003-2018 R.I.P.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:51 AM   #3968
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I'm still here! Not banned yet! What's wrong with Ohio?! "The Great State..."
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:09 AM   #3969
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:31 AM   #3970
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Isn't this whole debate pretty much nullified if everyone were to only play tournaments?
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:01 AM   #3971
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Isn't this whole debate pretty much nullified if everyone were to only play tournaments?
Mostly, yes. Except the hard core rigtards will say the site wants to help donks to get deeper in tournaments to make them stay around longer thinking they will win the the next one, and not give up and go away. And help them win a SnG sometimes to keep them around. Whether that can somehow be translated to any actual profit increase for sites, I leave to the riggedologists to show.
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:15 AM   #3972
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Mostly, yes. Except the hard core rigtards will say the site wants to help donks to get deeper in tournaments to make them stay around longer thinking they will win the the next one, and not give up and go away. And help them win a SnG sometimes to keep them around. Whether that can somehow be translated to any actual profit increase for sites, I leave to the riggedologists to show.
That must be a ridiculous challenge to code, when stack size and bet size have to be taken into account.
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:34 AM   #3973
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Isn't this whole debate pretty much nullified if everyone were to only play tournaments?
I would expect the sites get lots of angry email about rigged play money tables.

Riggedology is a faith that will always be able to adapt to any conditions, since it premises are based on vague beliefs and requiring others to disprove negatives.
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Old 05-29-2009, 11:39 AM   #3974
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Riggedology is a faith that will always be able to adapt to any conditions, since it premises are based on vague beliefs and requiring others to disprove negatives.
Like most religions IMO.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:44 PM   #3975
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Like most religions IMO.
Similar belief structure but they are not the same.

Most organized religions are based on faith of something that is supreme and unknown and beyond the scope of mankind. One can debate it, but faith in and by itself in this sense is not always a bad thing as it brings comfort and stability to many people's lives.

On the other hand, the Riggedologist faith is based on a quantifiable crime committed by other humans, so while they may preach the same belief in the unknown (ie: the rooms just magically rig it somehow), the reality is that these beliefs are based on actions that can be proven true or false.
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