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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:30 PM   #3776
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
EDIT: The part I put in bold is false. You are thinking about probability in the short term, but not over a large sample. Sure you could get pocket Aces a number of times in a row and as an isolated incident would never be able to prove any sort of "rigged deal", but if over a million hands you got dealt pocket aces 50,000 times this would clearly indicate a non-random deal. Fortunately, no studies have ever shown the deal to fall outside of the proper possible variance.
I pointed this out yesterday and he said I misunderstood him, and then he goes and says the same thing again today.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:32 PM   #3777
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
I think you are laughable with your useless large samples, in which perfectly fits any manipulated hands just like fits any not manipulated hands, therefore you are terrible missing the point with yoor so called analysis. You are useless.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:33 PM   #3778
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
this is not leveled 3 vs 2. Marcus, step aside and make sure everyone plays by the rules.

hell disregard transit wetness reoblige played three.

well, I can't guarantee Stars' RNG is legit, but this Random Word Generator seems to be working fine for me n' Username!
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:34 PM   #3779
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
hell disregard transit wetness reoblige played three.

well, I can't guarantee Stars' RNG is legit, but this Random Word Generator seems to be working fine for me n' Username!
Your random word is: obsession


Rigged.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:44 PM   #3780
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by KingOfFelt View Post
You are thinking about probability in the short term, but not over a large sample. Sure you could get pocket Aces a number of times in a row and as an isolated incident would never be able to prove any sort of "rigged deal", but if over a million hands you got dealt pocket aces 50,000 times this would clearly indicate a non-random deal. Fortunately, no studies have ever shown the deal to fall outside of the proper possible variance.
I believe you have no idea what I am talking about and it is obviously due to my unclear explanation, for which again accept my apologies.

What I have been suggesting is that the sites delivers the winning hands to designated accounts. So why the delivery of let say 3d or 7s on the river that benefits the designated account can modify your large sample, if 3d or 7s is a completely valid card in the context of poker and even it could be the result of a random operaion? I am not suggestion the sites deliver more AA and breaks the 220:1 ratio of odds. What I am suggesting is that knowing the distributed hands winning flop, turn and river delivered to designated accounts. How it would such manipulation modify your large sample? It wouldn’t.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:48 PM   #3781
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
I believe you have no idea what I am talking about and it is obviously due to my unclear explanation, for which again accept my apologies.
It isn´t about your form of expression. It`s about ignorance.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:49 PM   #3782
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Way to many wallsofwords posts, riggedfolk are immune to logic. We need more ice cream and dinosaurs.
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:58 PM   #3783
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Way to many wallsofwords posts, riggedfolk are immune to logic. We need more ice cream and dinosaurs.
Maybe this will fit anyhow in your needs :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIZVdpjEu2g
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:58 PM   #3784
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Of all the classic rigtard material that's appeared since I last read read this thread, this sentence is my favourite:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
I think logically thinking that the outcome witch has more percentage to win a hand, would win it more than it is expected to, becouse each time it has the same chance to make a winning combination as it had before and in long term AA vs PP should be holding more than its expected to.
I told my employers at Stars not to use these cards in their software or they would get caught out.



Of all the arguments against your collective rigtard conspiracies that you choose to ignore this post should be the easiest for you to understand

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Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
Good post, but what i am woried about is not poker stars. In fact, I feel like playing a fair game when I play there. What wories me most is full tilt, what kind of regulations it has ?
So many rigtards have particular sites which they think are fair (where they may currently be winning) and others which they are convinced are rigged against them (presumably where they lose). The fact that you cant agree on which sites belong in which category surely shows that you are deluding yourselves. Or are particular sites rigged against certain types of "good" players to the benefit of certain types of "bad" players?

If you provide some data rather than just making it up there could be no arguement
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:03 PM   #3785
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
It isn´t about your form of expression. It`s about ignorance.
Well, knowing the software industry, knowing software professionals and understanding that on an unregulated environment the possibilities are endless if one deploys a malicious software components. If they would have, their operation would be transparent and all relevant policies that dictated by the regulation would be enforced.

Last edited by Markusgc; 05-27-2009 at 04:10 PM. Reason: racist theories have no place here.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:04 PM   #3786
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
Of all the classic rigtard material that's appeared since I last read read this thread, this sentence is my favourite:



I told my employers at Stars not to use these cards in their software or they would get caught out.



Of all the arguments against your collective rigtard conspiracies that you choose to ignore this post should be the easiest for you to understand



So many rigtards have particular sites which they think are fair (where they may currently be winning) and others which they are convinced are rigged against them (presumably where they lose). The fact that you cant agree on which sites belong in which category surely shows that you are deluding yourselves. Or are particular sites rigged against certain types of "good" players to the benefit of certain types of "bad" players?

If you provide some data rather than just making it up there could be no arguement

I didnt said that i lose, but i run way above EV.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:05 PM   #3787
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
see, here's where they're devious...

you will get AA the proper number of hands, but IF you get to showdown, you'll win less often than expected. because it's nearly impossible to determine the exact number of times you're supposed to win AT SHOWDOWN in multi-way pots, when the fish gets his miracle river card you'll just say "that's poker." meanwhile, the site allows him to play a little longer, laughing all the way to the unregulated offshore bank.

do I have that right?

oh, not quite. that only applies to cash games. there's a totally different theory on how they rig them. ask sooper for a briefing on that.
Almost there. The only thing is that you are focusing in big hands, like AA. It can be done with any hand, like J9o, 84o. Dont matter. As a matter of fact exactly because it can be done:

1. with any hand

2. at any point of the round

3. at any point of the time

that it cannot be detect.


For tournments I dont have a good theory.

Think the server bots is a good theory, and it would be very difficult to detect because if the bot changes nickname everyday it would be very disguising. No one would remember and no one would have time to make a good database on his game to even determineit is a bot.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:08 PM   #3788
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
If you provide some data rather than just making it up there could be no arguement
that sounds like witchcraft for sure!
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:13 PM   #3789
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
Well, I have noticed the crusaders who try to stop having intelligent conversation about seemingly rigged poker sites having very little ability to apply basic formal logic to the problem. Yesterday I tried to demonstrate that applying basic logic and a small element of set theory makes completely useless your 24/7 shouting about the multimillion hand sample analysis. Right know I would like to suggest to go back to basics. Here is a simple formal logic formula.

Statement “A”: Poker sites operators states that will deliver a fair, randomly distributed game to players and promises an uncompromised software operation and system integrity, and its operation will comply with enforced policies

Statement “B”: If the poker site operator intentionally fails to demonstrate that their system is integrity is not compromised by malicious components, if the the policies are not enforced on their system, if the poker sites continuously refuse to provide evidences that their system is fully audited, if the servers including business continuity servers at any location are not under the full control of the gaming authority the operation cannot be seen as fair, it must seen as a manipulated system, it is dishonest and unfair, in plain English is rigged

A = TRUE
B = TRUE
therefore PS and FT is rigged


Now, please go run, and do the google about formal logic than bring your usual personal rants.
When have PS and FT intentionally failed to demonstrate that their system and integrity is not compromised by malicious components (and everything else you said)?

AFAIK I haven't posted one rant in the nearly 6000 posts I have on 2+2. Please link me to one of my "usual rants".
Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
With these software for sure you can make statistical analisys but what I noted in the post is that the ablity to make satatistical analisys is worthless if you dont know:

1. Which hands to look for manipulation

2. In wich point of the round to look for the manipulation.

3. In which point of time to look for the manipulation .
"Manipulation" will show itself in the long run. Good players usually get their money in with the best of it. If they're winning less or more than they should, then those tools will show it.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:14 PM   #3790
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Almost there. The only thing is that you are focusing in big hands, like AA. It can be done with any hand, like J9o, 84o. Dont matter. As a matter of fact exactly because it can be done:

1. with any hand

2. at any point of the round

3. at any point of the time

that it cannot be detect.
The part you're missing here is the players that need the help the most will still manage to make tragic decisions and lose the hand regardless of how much the site rigs it in their favor.

As far as the "it cannot be detect" (sic) part, well you haven't detected me in you bedroom with your wife yet, have you?
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:14 PM   #3791
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I didnt said that i lose, but i run way above EV.
graphs and user names or it didn't happen
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:27 PM   #3792
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
I believe you have no idea what I am talking about and it is obviously due to my unclear explanation, for which again accept my apologies.

What I have been suggesting is that the sites delivers the winning hands to designated accounts. So why the delivery of let say 3d or 7s on the river that benefits the designated account can modify your large sample, if 3d or 7s is a completely valid card in the context of poker and even it could be the result of a random operaion? I am not suggestion the sites deliver more AA and breaks the 220:1 ratio of odds. What I am suggesting is that knowing the distributed hands winning flop, turn and river delivered to designated accounts. How it would such manipulation modify your large sample? It wouldn’t.
OK I think I'm starting to see your argument. The designated accounts get the cards they need more often than the non-designated accounts.

This would show up in an EV tool, as the non-designated accounts are not getting the cards they need as often as the designated accounts are, and are thus winning less than their share.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:28 PM   #3793
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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graphs and user names or it didn't happen
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:56 PM   #3794
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by toltec444 View Post
Almost there. The only thing is that you are focusing in big hands, like AA. It can be done with any hand, like J9o, 84o. Dont matter. As a matter of fact exactly because it can be done:

1. with any hand

2. at any point of the round

3. at any point of the time

that it cannot be detect.


For tournments I dont have a good theory.

Think the server bots is a good theory, and it would be very difficult to detect because if the bot changes nickname everyday it would be very disguising. No one would remember and no one would have time to make a good database on his game to even determineit is a bot.
Because you cash game theory is rock solid is it?

So the distribution of cards dealt overall will be exactly as it should be despite them dynamically deciding what the flop, turn and river will be in order to move the pot to a player of their choice. This will be done on all tables to all players whatever the insignificant extra profit and the increased chance of being caught. All these adjustments will be undetectable by the thousands of people analysing databases and despite the resources required and the risk of being caught, this tiny, undetectable rigging generates enough extra profit to make it worthwhile? And yet you've discovered it without any actual analysis, just a hunch based on you being unable to accept losing a few hands?

When you move onto your tournament theory just make something up like it's gospel and some other rigtard will make up a contradictory theory which covers any angles you may have missed. I.e. if you go with the "awful short stacks always get lucky and double up to help them win and encourage them to keep playing on the site" someone else will cover the "big stack always wins to get the tournament finished quicker" theory
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:56 PM   #3795
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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OK I think I'm starting to see your argument. The designated accounts get the cards they need more often than the non-designated accounts.

This would show up in an EV tool, as the non-designated accounts are not getting the cards they need as often as the designated accounts are, and are thus winning less than their share.
Alas, you do not know how to deal with the riggedologist faithful.

The simple riggedologist reply would be that the people behind the magical rigging know how that tool works and would subtly allow the results to fit within your search while at the same time having the results favor certain people.

All the while having no one who is behind these truly inspired bits of programming ever revealing what they know.


How exactly do you think your mere unbiased data and statistical analysis compares to the powerful forces that are behind the riggedologist followers?
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:57 PM   #3796
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
I believe you have no idea what I am talking about and it is obviously due to my unclear explanation, for which again accept my apologies.

What I have been suggesting is that the sites delivers the winning hands to designated accounts. So why the delivery of let say 3d or 7s on the river that benefits the designated account can modify your large sample, if 3d or 7s is a completely valid card in the context of poker and even it could be the result of a random operaion? I am not suggestion the sites deliver more AA and breaks the 220:1 ratio of odds. What I am suggesting is that knowing the distributed hands winning flop, turn and river delivered to designated accounts. How it would such manipulation modify your large sample? It wouldn’t.
So you would be able to see a statistical anomaly over a large sample size within these individual accounts then. This is still testable.
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:18 PM   #3797
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
The part you're missing here is the players that need the help the most will still manage to make tragic decisions and lose the hand regardless of how much the site rigs it in their favor.

As far as the "it cannot be detect" (sic) part, well you haven't detected me in you bedroom with your wife yet, have you?
I didnt missed that, I said exactly that few posts ago. The rig model does not intend to favor this or that player neither cares who wins the hand or not, what the rigged system cares is to keep the money more time in the table. This is how it works:

1. The rigged software makes the favorite hand win less frequent than it would be expected. But note (this is very important) the favorite hand stills wins most of it, indeed almost in the right frequency.

That leads tothe conclusion that even if that software is running the better player will win money in the long run and the bad player will lose.

Note one important point, there is no sense in simply revert the equity of two hands playing HU. Theres no sense in making AA win 20% against 88. That would give no extra benefit for the poker room.


The ideal scenario for a poker room is that every hand played had 50% of equity, that would generate the maximum amount of rake possible.

Obviously they cant make that, because if they did no one would be profit and it would be easy to know something was wrong, so they try to aproximate the equities the more they can in the direction of that ideal 50%.In the previous example lets say, making AA win 60% against 88.
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:22 PM   #3798
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

OK well that can still be disproven with the EV tools.
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:28 PM   #3799
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I didnt missed that, I said exactly that few posts ago. The rig model does not intend to favor this or that player neither cares who wins the hand or not, what the rigged system cares is to keep the money more time in the table. This is how it works:

1. The rigged software makes the favorite hand win less frequent than it would be expected. But note (this is very important) the favorite hand stills wins most of it, indeed almost in the right frequency.

That leads tothe conclusion that even if that software is running the better player will win money in the long run and the bad player will lose.

Note one important point, there is no sense in simply revert the equity of two hands playing HU. Theres no sense in making AA win 20% against 88. That would give no extra benefit for the poker room.


The ideal scenario for a poker room is that every hand played had 50% of equity, that would generate the maximum amount of rake possible.

Obviously they cant make that, because if they did no one would be profit and it would be easy to know something was wrong, so they try to aproximate the equities the more they can in the direction of that ideal 50%.In the previous example lets say, making AA win 60% against 88.

Not to try to get into a factual debate with a seasoned riggedologist, but

Your point 1 would be very easy to detect via statistical analysis if it was happening. Plus someone who programmed it would have told by now (with specifics as to what they did).

In general, the fact that there are a ton of players who constantly lose a ton and some players who consistently win pretty much invalidates the rest of your theory that the rooms try to make everyone break about even.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/54...8/index59.html

is a thread filled with all sorts of graphs to show this.


You are abandoning the roots of your riggedology beliefs by trying to engage in a discussion involving facts, since the ones you present are flawed and easy to disprove. I highly suggest returning to the more vague and sexy comments like "The Russians are behind it"

After all, no one can disprove that.
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:30 PM   #3800
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

****ing rigged
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