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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-27-2009, 08:55 AM   #3701
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
fixed.
Becouse of people like you, noone will ever find out if they are strangers or is it real claims. Becouse there are to many close minded ignorants in this world who can just not accept the fact of that neither one or other side of the debate has any sort of proof.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:01 AM   #3702
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Becouse of people like you, noone will ever find out if they are strangers or is it real claims. Becouse there are to many close minded ignorants in this world who can just not accept the fact of that neither one or other side of the debate has any sort of proof.
I don't prevent the truth from coming out, I merely point out that nobody has offered any verifiable evidence of their claims.

and I still think if anyone doesn't believe online poker is legit they should just quit playing and stop posting in the Internet Poker Forum.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:08 AM   #3703
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I don't prevent the truth from coming out, I merely point out that nobody has offered any verifiable evidence of their claims.

and I still think if anyone doesn't believe online poker is legit they should just quit playing and stop posting in the Internet Poker Forum.
It´s getting old. After dozens of posts we are at the same point.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:14 AM   #3704
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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It´s getting old. After dozens of posts we are at the same point.
If you're bored, feel free to post elsewhere. Pocket 5's perhaps?
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:23 AM   #3705
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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This is ridiculous Monteroy. Who would need to be in the know that Stars is rigged?

Probably only the software programmer or team and the owner/very senior management who btw make millions.

Assuming Stars is rigged for a second do you really believe that every employee would need to be in on it?

People hired to answer emails are told that its rigged? Cmon you cant really believe what your saying is anything but utter nonsense.
It is not just Stars. It is also Tilt, Party, ipoker skins, ongame skins, Everest, microgaming, etc etc.

Tons of people among all of those rooms would be "in the know" if they were all being secretly rigged, and all of them have kept the secret till now.

Understand, I am not a disbeliever of riggedology because I think poker rooms are sweet and angelic. Hardly, they are cutthroat businesses.

The problem is that most of the tenants of the riggedology religion require a huge amount of humans to behave in ways that they never will, and that is where the logic gap comes from.

So when you suggest that a a few dozen people at Stars over the years can keep the secret, even if we grant that we have dozens of other rooms that have to be in the same situation. Shrug, someone would squeal with atcual hard data by now if it existed.


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If you look well, you can find posts on internet like ex. software programer of full tilt saying that the deal is not fair, or like friend of stars programer saying that his friend said to him that the deal is not fair. But these are things that can´t be proved, such as a fact that it is not rigged.
Well, that proves that some people will try to speak out (kind of basic common sense), however the problem with these types of internet claims is that they usually have no actual evidence and are just the ramblings of angry or paranoid people.

You can find similar posts of people who claim to have been abducted. They believe it themselves, but to get others to believe it they need to prove it. If you believe anything that anyone says over the internet then that makes you extremely naive and gullible, nothing more.

All the best.
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Old 05-27-2009, 09:51 AM   #3706
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Not totally clear on what you're saying here, but now I guess you're going with AA winning more often than it should, when your previous argument was that people could get dealt AA 12 times in a row and it would still be "random".
I have never stated that a malicious software module should or would break the randomness of the card distribution. All I said is that the winning cards can be distributed to designated accounts by compromising system integrity and placing a malicious (not audited, not verified) module in the system.

Actually I am amazed not mainly by your naivety and lack of imagination, but from how much you capable to overcomplicate simple solutions to simple problems. In the financial software World where I work we deal with simple minded software criminals who deliver their tricks very efficiently and in the meantime usually in a simple manner. So here is what an average, simple minded software criminal that I have the privilege to see on daily bases in the financial software field would design into a software system in order to get a small but steadily flowing percentage of tournament moneys:

Game # 1:
Account A (legitimate user account): hand AKs
Account B (bot software account): hand 77
Action: if all in
Flop, turn, river: 2,3,4,5,6
Account B won

Game # 2:
Account A (legitimate user account): hand 77
Account B (bot software account): hand AKs
Action: if all in
Flop, turn, river: 2,3,4,5,A
Account B won

So tell me please ... how on the earth the above very simplified theoretical games would break the expected statistical results, not comply with expected poker odds and modify the outcome of the so called and claimed multibillion hands analysis that spadebidder and other are working on? It simply wouldn’t. The very-very simple process of designated card distribution demonstrated above that delivers winning hand to designated bot software accounts is feasible – and take my word: if a software component does make sense from financial gain viewpoint, if it is feasible and doable than that component is/will be implemented.

[I think precisely that’s what we can see for example at FT, where it seems the operator deploys bot accounts which life time is never more than one day. During the one day period of operation the account produces an amazingly effective and constantly winning hyper multi table play at SNGs being frequently on the final table and successfully keep some cash for the operator. Next day the previous day account is gone already and new accounts appear with similarly high winning percentage. Go to FT and you will see this s...t with your own eyes. A set of bot accounts that you have never seen before plays there each of them on 4-5 tables, continuously winning for 8 hours, next day a new set of accounts produce this remarkable successful poker game and the following day new accounts will come. Truly discussing].
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:05 AM   #3707
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

[QUOTE=dbcooper279;10879333]Citigal, the company who did an independent audit of PS's RNG has been around since before PS was even a though in someone's mind.
QUOTE]

It’s really annoying that people who know nothing about software system design and implementation are being so arrogant and talk about software system design and implementation, system audit and addition to that, they present the Cigital auditing on RNG module in order to prove that the a poker software system integrity cannot and in fact is not compromised.

Those who seemingly hypnotised from the word of “Cigital” and cloud that PS has created around Cigital should understand: the so called Cigital RNG auditing is nothing to do with system integrity nor does it prove that the system is composed by audited, source control verified, signed software components just to mention a few area that's needs to be the subject of a comprehensive software auditing process.

The issue is: there is no credible resource available that indicates the software system is under the FULL control of a functioning gaming authority and the system integrity cannot be compromised at some stage such as at the application or transport layer.

I am asking again: please provide resources, links, materials that clearly indicates that the software system is audited adequately, transparently details the methodologies of audit process, and most importantly makes clear how on the Earth the policies are enforced when the actual operation cannot be controlled by the tiny Chanel Island gaming authority as the ISP (which is by the way not member of any professional organizations) is based in London, their data centres and business continuity IT infrastructure are in London, Caribbean and US?

Until such resources or information is not available for public review and the operation is completely lack of transparency, I have no reason to believe that a poker enterprise that is obtained gaming license in the tiny Chanel Island but deploys its not audited nor verified IT infrastructure in London and some Caribbean location is a genuine and honest operation.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:25 AM   #3708
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Monteroy View Post
Humans tend to be not great at keeping secrets, and the more that know it the quicker they get revealed, so it is strange that none of these low paying people holding onto the testicles of a huge company like Stars have not started squeezing based on the information they know. No disgruntled employees squealing as well so far either which is probably a world wide first in an industry this size.
So let speak about well respected organizations that employed thousands of individuals and managed to keep the secret: Bernie Madoff, Enron or just name Sir Allen Stanford’s multibillion dollar fraud as the latest in the long list of dishonest operation and greediness in human nature.

And then, we are talking about a gambling poker enterprise (PS) that was set up by a very knowledgeable IT professional who demonstrated in the past at IBM that he is perfectly capable to control a small group of software professionals and who knows what software system is, in the same time this is an organization that fails to demonstrate and establish transparency for its unregulated and uncontrolled operation, they are virtually outside of a the jurisdiction of the western civilization by getting license from an offshore island, but placing their system at different offshore islands and undisclosed offshore data centres, using their own weirdly bespoke ISP that is interestingly choose to be outside of the professional IT world being not a member of any professional organisations, an ISP that routes the IP traffic to no one knows where, and this whole mixture of dodginess by nature is linked to investors such as Abramovich and Berezovsky, individuals who successfully smuggled a reasonable portion of Russia’s national wealth to abroad. And then you expect we trust and believe that this unregulated, lack of integrity nonsense is actually manifests a genuine, honest business. You must be joking.

You must be either writing from a junior class of a high school or an older division of a retirement home being so naive, idealistically and blindly having trust in the honesty of offshore gambling operators, beign isolated from real issues in software security field and not knowing that even the very well regulated financial IT industry fights with software criminals on daily bases and by nature the large portion of the crime is inside job.

I will accept that these criminals' IT system and card distribution is not rigged if they will operate transparently, put their businesses under the control of regulation and open up their operation to public scrutiny.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:28 AM   #3709
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Entraction and Ongame are rigged 110% sure.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:28 AM   #3710
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Wake up this morning,

AA < KK
AQ < A7

So that's how many hands in a row now? Impossible probabilities.

To all that people who ask why there's all these trolls in these threads defending this ****. Its because it all about affiliates/sponsers/$$$$/etc.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:31 AM   #3711
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by breakevenpro View Post
Entraction and Ongame are rigged 110% sure.
that's great. thanks for stopping by.
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Originally Posted by K13 View Post
Wake up this morning,

AA < KK
AQ < A7

So that's how many hands in a row now? Impossible probabilities.

To all that people who ask why there's all these trolls in these threads defending this ****. Its because it all about affiliates/sponsers/$$$$/etc.
I just went out of a cheap 3-Table SnG where my KK < 88. So rigged. I can PM the hand to any doubters if they want proof.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:59 AM   #3712
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I have no affiliation with any site and I think all you rigtards should commit suicide.

I find it funny that you people determine that the sites must be rigged since you're terrible at poker and therefore it must be the sites fault. Sure you take a couple of bad beats; but so does everyone. Are you losing non-showdown? How about small and medium sized pots?

The worst thing that can happen for online poker right now is regulation by the U.S government and for some reason it's a common trend that rigtads think will save poker. So in the best case scenario the games stay exactly how they are now and the rigtards have one less out to explain why they can't beat the games.

Fantastic.

Go watch some videos on cardrunners or something instead of trying to fight a crusade which doesn't even exist
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:04 AM   #3713
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

All online poker boom in the past few years created a religion in it self. People who blindelly believe in something that does not exist (Fair Deal). And even if it was not proved that it is rigged or not, noone want to face a fact that it was not proved other wise either. I was reveiving full tilts audit and it was totally useless. So, even if those companys has many years in the buisiness now, they still refuse to provide a reasonable analyzis of complete funcionality of their system. And even knowing that, there are still a bunch of butheads blindly believing and defending it when they have nothing to support their claims and only thing that they do is to pass statements to each other without giving any reasonable explination other part of debate and witch from their point of view makes them right.
Before asking for a proof next time, show me the proof that the poker rooms have aquired in their years of existance, not only the document that shows that their RNG generates random numbers, but also deep analyzis of all their components under different circumstances.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:07 AM   #3714
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I never have.

Then again I don't play many tourneys so losing an 80/20 just means I reload and move on with my life, not cry cry cry about losing $3 and a chance at $50 or something.
You do know cards don't have a memory, right?
Amazingly, some people can multitask and both post and do other things.

Name one aside from AP/UB, since they're the same site.
It was 50NL

Like it matters if its $5, $50, $5000. It happens too often than it should.

I don't play many cash games since I don't trust the sites or the people.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:13 AM   #3715
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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All online poker boom in the past few years created a religion in it self. People who blindelly believe in something that does not exist (Fair Deal). And even if it was not proved that it is rigged or not, noone want to face a fact that it was not proved other wise either. I was reveiving full tilts audit and it was totally useless. So, even if those companys has many years in the buisiness now, they still refuse to provide a reasonable analyzis of complete funcionality of their system. And even knowing that, there are still a bunch of butheads blindly believing and defending it when they have nothing to support their claims and only thing that they do is to pass statements to each other without giving any reasonable explination other part of debate and witch from their point of view makes them right.
Before asking for a proof next time, show me the proof that the poker rooms have aquired in their years of existance, not only the document that shows that their RNG generates random numbers, but also deep analyzis of all their components under different circumstances.

It isn't blind. Some of us have millions of hands at these sites and it shows that the deal is accurate. I don't understand how you can't figure this much out. If something was rigged it would show up in SOMEONES stats, things would be drastically skewed over LARGE sample sizes but this is never the case. Ask any of the well known grinders on this site to look at their HEM over a huge sample and let them tell you. I mean you won't believe anyone or anything so you won't do this but still.


ALso regarding other moron. I've been winning at 50nl for 17bb/100 for the past 125k hands (aka this month) and I've had my share of bad beats too but the majority of the time the better hands hold but I bet you don't play very many hands so your sample size is small and not relevant.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:17 AM   #3716
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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It happens too often than it should.
you keep saying this. do you understand that we'd like to see some proof of your claim?
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:17 AM   #3717
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

you guys are sick degenerates to think that anyone would ever cheat in a card game.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:30 AM   #3718
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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you guys are sick degenerates to think that anyone would ever cheat in a card game.
+1 who would ever do such bad and unacceptible thing ? Specially when Stars and Full tilt are created by former poker players.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:34 AM   #3719
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

This explains online to a tee, so I lose AK < Ax again, so I'm tilting like ****.

Have A6, see a big raise, obviously behind. I shove anyway. He has KK.

Ace on the river. I should be happy I won but not really its just lame.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:35 AM   #3720
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

These companies do such a good job of covering up their riggedness that we have a thread over 3K posts about it. You "rigtards" must be geniuses for figuring it all out!
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:36 AM   #3721
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I should be happy I won but not really its just lame.
no u
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:40 AM   #3722
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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no u
Good point.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:52 AM   #3723
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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So let speak about well respected organizations that employed thousands of individuals and managed to keep the secret: Bernie Madoff, Enron or just name Sir Allen Stanford’s multibillion dollar fraud as the latest in the long list of dishonest operation and greediness in human nature.

Amid the whiny, meaningless bad beat posts of that K guy and the "someone pay attention to me" Username posts it is good to see new and promising Riggedologists come out and put forth support for their beliefs. I encourage that.

Your examples are amusing for one simple reason. All those people got caught, because that is pretty much a certainty with people knowing what was going on (some did come forward which helped expose them), and the cumulative risk associated with running a criminal company.

And yet in the online poker world, dozens of companies are apparently secretly, magically rigging their software in often times contradictory ways (easier if Riggedologists ever get their beliefs organized), with none getting caught yet for having rigged software.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
And then, we are talking about a gambling poker enterprise (PS) that was set up by a very knowledgeable IT professional who demonstrated in the past at IBM that he is perfectly capable to control a small group of software professionals and who knows what software system is, in the same time this is an organization that fails to demonstrate and establish transparency for its unregulated and uncontrolled operation, they are virtually outside of a the jurisdiction of the western civilization by getting license from an offshore island, but placing their system at different offshore islands and undisclosed offshore data centres, using their own weirdly bespoke ISP that is interestingly choose to be outside of the professional IT world being not a member of any professional organisations, an ISP that routes the IP traffic to no one knows where, and this whole mixture of dodginess by nature is linked to investors such as Abramovich and Berezovsky, individuals who successfully smuggled a reasonable portion of Russia’s national wealth to abroad. And then you expect we trust and believe that this unregulated, lack of integrity nonsense is actually manifests a genuine, honest business. You must be joking.
These are solid hard core fanciful Riggedology beliefs, all crammed into an overstuffed paragraph to boot.

Well done sir/maam/other.

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Originally Posted by PokErasmus View Post
You must be either writing from a junior class of a high school or an older division of a retirement home being so naive, idealistically and blindly having trust in the honesty of offshore gambling operators, beign isolated from real issues in software security field and not knowing that even the very well regulated financial IT industry fights with software criminals on daily bases and by nature the large portion of the crime is inside job.

I will accept that these criminals' IT system and card distribution is not rigged if they will operate transparently, put their businesses under the control of regulation and open up their operation to public scrutiny.
Nothing can be done that will sway you from your passionate belief in Riggedology. No amount of proof or transparency will provide comfort, as all it will do is add an extra layer to the onion of those who are "in on it." That is one of the foundations of the Riggedology faith.

You are off to a solid start in the practice of Riggedology, please feel free to post some more long rambling manifestos to further support those beliefs, and as always

All the best.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:06 PM   #3724
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

[QUOTE=lilaznboi;10888058]It isn't blind. Some of us have millions of hands at these sites and it shows that the deal is accurate. QUOTE]

In the context of software operation and until the system integrity is not verifyed with a controlled audit process, the multimillion hands dataset obviously does not show that the software system integrity is not compromised, therefore your sample can't prove that the game is fair.

You are missing the simple point that by compromising the software system integrity and populating the winning card to a designated bot accounts (or even designated user accounts) the randomness of winner account can be manipulated while the statistical result remains accurate and the expected. Distributing cards to designated accounts does not mean that a designated account should receive AA proportionally more. As you know in poker anything can be the winning card. 7d2s over AA is a perfectly legitimate winner in certain cases just like AA over 7d2s. You only need 500 lines of simple trick in the software source code in order to route a some small portion of winner cards to certain accounts and generate extra revenue in the multi-million dollar range for the operator.

In my opinion that's what the Russian linked and backed operators do at PS and FT.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:10 PM   #3725
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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In my opinion that's what the Russian linked and backed operators do at PS and FT.
and you're entitled to your opinion. but wtf are you doing here? trying to convince us to stop playing? that's like going to a Texas Cattleman Convention and asking them to go vegan.
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