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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:32 PM   #3676
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Is this admission that K13 is your gimmick account?
Why are you looking for some kind of "hidden message" in my post. I meaned what i said. I like Stars, Party and Entraction.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:32 PM   #3677
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Why is that ? The reason why i dislike many other sites is becouse : Cake, iPoker, Boss - Software. Full Tilt - I don´t trust them.
I quoted K13's post, and asked for his SN. You responded to my post as if I quoted you.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:34 PM   #3678
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I quoted K13's post, and asked for his SN. You responded to my post as if I quoted you.
But what i was doing, is agreeing with you from my point of view, supporting you by the fact that i trust pokerstars. ?
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:36 PM   #3679
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Who cares .. Ivey plays there for millons so it can´t be rigged.

LOLYou need to step out of the shade...IVEY plays there because some where along the line he is locked in for a percentage of the profits.FACT so is he really losing over the long run..No as long as FTP makes money.
And this means that it cant be rigged why? with servers in 2 different countries software house in another if they were rigged who could prove or even begin to investigate.Only an inside Rat could do this but remember we are dealing with very clever people here a lot smarter than me or you.

Last edited by hitman4hire; 05-26-2009 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Plus they got billions as we know money talks
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:40 PM   #3680
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Lemme get this straight; we can throw all of the hand analysis out the window, and assume it is rigged based on the fact that their servers and software are in different places?
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:42 PM   #3681
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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LOLYou need to step out of the shade...IVEY plays there because some where along the line he is locked in for a percentage of the profits.FACT so is he really losing over the long run..No as long as FTP makes money.
And this means that it cant be rigged why? with servers in 2 different countries software house in another if they were rigged who could prove or even begin to investigate.Only an inside Rat could do this but remember we are dealing with very clever people here a lot smarter thabn me or you.
I don´t like full tilt, and my reply was sarcastic. None of full tilt pros is making money, they all are losing players. But when it comes to "Look, everyone is talking about guss losing 2M in past 3 weeks". The things suddenly changes, and guss get a sick heater in which noone can beat him. 2 3 outer on after other crushing everyone in his way. I am wondering if its the same in Live poker, those roller coaster rides through the variance. Specially talking about someone like guss hansen in online poker, when he is well known as Hyper Maniac who plays his oponents not his cards. I was railing him a couple of weeks ago, he was playing Urindanger and Durr 2 tables each, and he won like 4 buy ins from both on each table. Give me a brake. He was hitting so bad, 109 vs KQ on J910 board ofcourse Guss sucking out. Stuff like that, and one hand after other.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:45 PM   #3682
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Lemme get this straight; we can throw all of the hand analysis out the window, and assume it is rigged based on the fact that their servers and software are in different places?
You can throw spadebidders work through the window becouse it proves nothing. Lets say i have a 10 rigged coins. 5 of them flips heads 75% of the time, and other one flips heads 75% of the time. What will i get after combining 10K results of each coin ? 100K coinflips with an average of 50/50.
I am off have, have fun
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:45 PM   #3683
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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I don´t like full tilt, and my reply was sarcastic. None of full tilt pros is making money, they all are losing players. But when it comes to "Look, everyone is talking about guss losing 2M in past 3 weeks". The things suddenly changes, and guss get a sick heater in which noone can beat him. 2 3 outer on after other crushing everyone in his way. I am wondering if its the same in Live poker, those roller coaster rides through the variance. Specially talking about someone like guss hansen in online poker, when he is well known as Hyper Maniac who plays his oponents not his cards. I was railing him a couple of weeks ago, he was playing Urindanger and Durr 2 tables each, and he won like 4 buy ins from both on each table. Give me a brake. He was hitting so bad, 109 vs KQ on J910 board ofcourse Guss sucking out. Stuff like that, and one hand after other.
Sounds to me like hindsight bias.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:49 PM   #3684
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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You can throw spadebidders work through the window becouse it proves nothing. Lets say i have a 10 rigged coins. 5 of them flips heads 75% of the time, and other one flips heads 75% of the time. What will i get after combining 10K results of each coin ? 100K coinflips with an average of 50/50.
I am off have, have fun
Sounds like your theory falls in the equity redistribution category. Any idea how difficult it would be to do this? More money would be spent trying to design this system than would be made while it is implemented.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:50 PM   #3685
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Lemme get this straight; we can throw all of the hand analysis out the window, and assume it is rigged based on the fact that their servers and software are in different places?
No i am pointing out hat if said operation was to fail due to law in one coutry changing or any illegal activities ect ect it does not comprimise there business as a whole and lets face it people still play at UB.RNGS and software algorithms are a different beast but then the question that is still present is who regulates this to make sure all is well and 100% legitimate and truley random some third party shell company set to add credability.Varience the new word for give me your money fool.

Last edited by hitman4hire; 05-26-2009 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:52 PM   #3686
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Why is it when you have AA KK and someone shoves on you, you start getting nervous instead of salivating?
I never have.

Then again I don't play many tourneys so losing an 80/20 just means I reload and move on with my life, not cry cry cry about losing $3 and a chance at $50 or something.
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Chance of that all in a row, go play the lottery but this every day. You still defend this? Get away with you.
You do know cards don't have a memory, right?
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You are losing money by posting here.
Amazingly, some people can multitask and both post and do other things.

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Why do you all ask for proof when more then one site has been found to be taking peoples monies dishonestly.
Name one aside from AP/UB, since they're the same site.
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Old 05-26-2009, 10:58 PM   #3687
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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No i am pointing out hat if said operation was to fail due to law in one company changing or any illegal activities ect ect it does not comprimise there business and lets face it people still play at ub.RNGS and software algorithms are a different beast but then the question that is still present is who regulates this to make sure all is well some third party shell company set to add credability.Varience the new word for give me your money fool.
Citigal, the company who did an independent audit of PS's RNG has been around since before PS was even a though in someone's mind.

How can a shell company be older than the parent company?
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:13 PM   #3688
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Citigal, the company who did an independent audit of PS's RNG has been around since before PS was even a though in someone's mind.

How can a shell company be older than the parent company?
unless there is total transarecy from citigal then maybe ps is legit but one audit mmmmm
and the later is an example of how you go about lookin legitamate...and there has been more than 1 site in the past who have been dishonest in 1 way or another FACT.

Peace l8ters
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:15 PM   #3689
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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unless there is total transarecy from citigal then maybe ps is legit but one audit mmmmm
and the later is an example of how you go about lookin legitamate...and there has been more than 1 site in the past who have been dishonest in 1 way or another FACT.

Peace l8ters
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Cigital, Inc. is a leading provider of solutions to speed the development and delivery of high-quality software. The company is a major provider of software quality management (SQM) solutions to major corporations worldwide, including Visa International, AOL Time Warner, Motorola, General Electric, Ericsson and many others.

Cigital has announced that it has confirmed the reliability and security of the random number generator (RNG) that PokerStars uses to shuffle cards on its PokerStars.com online poker site.

Cigital analyzed the source code, entropy sources and documentation for PokerStars' RNG implementation. In addition, a sample RNG output stream provided by PokerStars was subjected to - and passed - FIPS 140-1 testing. Using standard methods for exploiting RNGs and having full access to the source code, Cigital was unable to break the PokerStars RNG. Cigital found that the PokerStars implementation adheres to the current state-of-the-practice in generating random seeding values.

"Software that can generate reliable random numbers is an absolute requirement in the gaming industry," said Gary McGraw, Chief Technology Officer at Cigital. "Our analysis included extensive examination of the underlying algorithm for random number generation. We can state with confidence that use of the PokerStars RNG results in statistically random sequences used to generate the poker hands dealt on PokerStars.com. This, in turn, should provide a safe and fair gaming environment for the site's players."

"Cigital's reputation for excellence is well known in the gaming industry," said Dan Goldman, Vice President of Marketing at PokerStars. "Their previous discovery of critical RNG implementation weakness at a major online poker site made our decision to work with Cigital an easy one. Their considerable technical expertise and thorough approach to software reliability and security have established them as a trusted third-party evaluator."
I'm sure if you emailed PS support, they could probably hook you up with a full report if you asked kindly.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:29 PM   #3690
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

http://www.citigal.com/about/
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Cigital, Inc., a leading software security and quality consulting firm, was established in 1992 with a single focus on helping organizations improve software. Our consultants specialize in programs that empower companies and government agencies to make sure their software applications are secure and reliable while enabling them to dramatically improve how they build and deploy software.
By God the Lizard People are good.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:00 AM   #3691
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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spadebidder,

Thank you for letting me know about the regulation, software development control and software audit aspect of operation at the Chanel Island by pushing me links here a few weeks ago. I have read all relevant documents from the Chanel Island gaming authority resources and being a software professional actually I do understand what they are talking about.

I have to admit that I am very impressed and you were quite right - there is indeed an adequate process control in place especially from the viewpoint of software development and implementation which is in obviously in the center of the debate as the poker sites use software to distribute the game to users. It looks good what those guys at the authority require and if the policy would be actually enforced players should not be worried about the rigged system.

The problem is, that from the available resources it is unclear how the policies are enforced and whether it is enforced at all. There is no reference at all to procedures and actual actions that enforces the policy and it makes questionable how the tiny offshore island's tiny gaming authority ensures the software integrity on hundreds of servers when some of the servers sits in a Caribbean or Florida based data centre. Additionally, knowing the frequency of software updates rolled out by the sites and generaly speaking the magnitude of operation it seems not feasible to ensure software integrity using the resource available to the tiny gaming authority and its unknown subcontractors.

The bigger problem is that from technical viewpoint the policies are simply not enforceable. Why? Mainly because 1) the nature of the software business namely that IP traffic needs to be routed via different systems 2) the business continuity aspect of the software operation. Addressing business continuity is essential in enterprise software system operaio. Poker Stars, FT and all large sites utilizing business continuity sites, which means that the servers are in different data centres in most of the cases in different continents. It is a complete mystery how the tiny Chanel Island gaming authority ensures the integrity of the servers and prevents the deployment of malicious components that interrupts and modifies the random card distribution. Additionally, when we realizes that the ISP of Poker Star is a company that is not member of any professional organizations, basically a bespoke IT operation that can route the traffic and data to unknown locations using unknown and not audited software systems, then software professionals are rightly say that this is a complete joke and nothing can be further from a regulated operation. The well constructed regulation and policies are might makes look good the poker operators in the eyes of the public and it gives you ammunition to defend them, but in reality it seems the sites operates in a completely uncontrolled manner.

If you know resources that details how policies can be actually enforced and in fact they are enforced by the Channel Island authority please let me know. I am still very sceptical about the software operation of large poker sites, but I am willing to accept that the operation is genuine if I can see resources about enforcing policies that guaranties software integrity and that the random card distribution is not interrupted at any levels (including the application and traffic layer).


I´m your fan, thats a good argument.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:03 AM   #3692
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Sounds like your theory falls in the equity redistribution category. Any idea how difficult it would be to do this? More money would be spent trying to design this system than would be made while it is implemented.
Every time someone comes with a rig theory some other one tells that it would be too expensive...

Please be more exact, tell me how much pokerstars earns each month and how much would cost to implement a rigged software, that would be very elucidating.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:28 AM   #3693
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Every time someone comes with a rig theory some other one tells that it would be too expensive...

Please be more exact, tell me how much pokerstars earns each month and how much would cost to implement a rigged software, that would be very elucidating.
You would have to weigh the marginal benefit of this mystical rigging against the marginal cost of doing the rigging.

The benefits of rigging according to many are more money (even though things like action hands take longer and would thus generate less rake per hour then non action hands that see a flop).

The risks that most riggedologists ignore are the costs of being caught and the chance of being caught.

Even in the most vague and mystical rigged theories, a healthy number of people would have to be "in the know" and each of them would represent a risk to the site if they revealed that information.

Since hard core riggedologists believe all sites are rigged, then a ton of people who have this great secret would exist if true.

Humans tend to be not great at keeping secrets, and the more that know it the quicker they get revealed, so it is strange that none of these low paying people holding onto the testicles of a huge company like Stars have not started squeezing based on the information they know. No disgruntled employees squealing as well so far either which is probably a world wide first in an industry this size.

Of course if the hands were flawed the odds are as well that one of the many stats freaks would catch them, just as they caught the super users and have discovered bots at various sites.

Riggedology has it's base in the vague and unprovable ie: "well, why wouldn't they do it those greedy, evil fat cats," yet by adhering to this belief it ignores the common sense behavior of actual humans.

Do people cheat and steal? Sure. Do large companies randomly cheat and steal with zero regard of being caught? No. Is it because they are mortally superior beings? Hardly. Is it because they are not complete morons? Basically.


I like some of the newer riggedologists appearing as many have fully bloomed and developed paranoid personalities so it is fun to see what they say and watch some try to reason with them (good luck with that).


Note, I do not expect a single riggedologist to change their views based on this post. Their views of a rigged world are their reason for being, so it would be naive to assume they would give them up merely in the face of reason and logic as those are not really what they value.

I look forward to spade's huge statistical analysis that will generate some very creative, magical, complex, almost sentient rigged theories in response.

All the best.
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Old 05-27-2009, 01:00 AM   #3694
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quoting Monteroy:

"Humans tend to be not great at keeping secrets, and the more that know it the quicker they get revealed, so it is strange that none of these low paying people holding onto the testicles of a huge company like Stars have not started squeezing based on the information they know. No disgruntled employees squealing as well so far either which is probably a world wide first in an industry this size."

If that was the case other big companies would never be able to keep their
company secrets. Lets imagine a big company like sony is working in a new technology, that is a secret, and no one give that information out just because the peopple that are working in that new technology are very well paid, exactly because thats a big and valueble secret. Of course the secetaries know nothing about that new technology.
So if there is a rigged poker software, few people would know about it inside the company and for sure they would be well paid for knowing that.
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Old 05-27-2009, 01:12 AM   #3695
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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If that was the case other big companies would never be able to keep their company secrets. Lets imagine a big company like sony is working in a new technology, that is a secret, and no one give that information out just because the peopple that are working in that new technology are very well paid, exactly because thats a big and valueble secret. Of course the secetaries know nothing about that new technology.
So if there is a rigged poker software, few people would know about it inside the company and for sure they would be well paid for knowing that.
Alas my fine riggedologist friend, you are merging concepts that seem similar but are not.

You speak of company secrets that are not criminal. It is in the interest of the company and the employees to maintain these, and even with that there are often cases of employees breaching this trust.

The other scenario requires normal people to keep a secret about essentially a massive criminal enterprise (at least in riggedologists minds). This is a much trickier scenario to expect people to keep the secret.

A more apt comparison would be how the mafia works. They have their secrets, but they also have their employees who squeal, which usually results in some higher ups being prosecuted etc. This is even when people who squeal about the mob get, you know, killed.

If Pokerstars was indeed the evil corporate criminal enterprise that riggedologists hope it is then we would see a huge rush of people who work there telling the truth, just as mob informers do. Stars does not even threaten to kill it's employees either, maybe just inflict a doomswitch on them.


I am not saying big companies are perfect, frankly Stars makes some pretty smelly moves once in a while ( the VIP promo for Brits for instance), but the riggedologists' beliefs of how they do bad things fails the basic common sense test.

Still, it is quite fun to hear the new and exciting dimensions of riggedology.

All the best.
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Old 05-27-2009, 07:35 AM   #3696
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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If Pokerstars was indeed the evil corporate criminal enterprise that riggedologists hope it is then we would see a huge rush of people who work there telling the truth, just as mob informers do. Stars does not even threaten to kill it's employees either, maybe just inflict a doomswitch on them.



Why would someone bite a hand that gives him a food ? Does it even make any sence ? Maybe, when poker room will fire a programer or 2 the truth will come out. But i doubt they would.
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:05 AM   #3697
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Why would someone bite a hand that gives him a food ? Does it even make any sence ? Maybe, when poker room will fire a programer or 2 the truth will come out. But i doubt they would.
Why would people tell? A nice simple question from the curious simple one of the thread.

The answer is fairly easy my lad:

- Some because of moral reasons (ie: whistle blowers)

- Some because of ego reasons (ie: the surge of power one feels when one shows their secret knowledge)

- Some because of personal reasons (ie: unhappy employee)

- Some by accident (ie: someone "in the know" tells a friend who then tells someone else etc)

- Some secretly (ie: how anonymous tip lines work)


I embrace the creativity of some of the branches of riggedology, but the reality is that it requires this industry to be the only one that has ever existed in the history of man to have a perfect track record of absolutely zero people letting on about the "secret" if it all is the massive evil conspiracy that riggedologists believe it to be.

Still, it is quite entertaining to see riggedology continue to develop and branch to new and strange areas when presented with more and more actual data and logic. People have always been expressive and creative, and riggedologists are certainly no exception.
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:23 AM   #3698
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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If Pokerstars was indeed the evil corporate criminal enterprise that riggedologists hope it is then we would see a huge rush of people who work there telling the truth, just as mob informers do. Stars does not even threaten to kill it's employees either, maybe just inflict a doomswitch on them.
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Why would people tell? A nice simple question from the curious simple one of the thread.

The answer is fairly easy my lad:

- Some because of moral reasons (ie: whistle blowers)

- Some because of ego reasons (ie: the surge of power one feels when one shows their secret knowledge)

- Some because of personal reasons (ie: unhappy employee)

- Some by accident (ie: someone "in the know" tells a friend who then tells someone else etc)

- Some secretly (ie: how anonymous tip lines work)


I embrace the creativity of some of the branches of riggedology, but the reality is that it requires this industry to be the only one that has ever existed in the history of man to have a perfect track record of absolutely zero people letting on about the "secret" if it all is the massive evil conspiracy that riggedologists believe it to be.

Still, it is quite entertaining to see riggedology continue to develop and branch to new and strange areas when presented with more and more actual data and logic. People have always been expressive and creative, and riggedologists are certainly no exception.
This is ridiculous Monteroy. Who would need to be in the know that Stars is rigged?

Probably only the software programmer or team and the owner/very senior management who btw make millions.

Assuming Stars is rigged for a second do you really believe that every employee would need to be in on it?

People hired to answer emails are told that its rigged? Cmon you cant really believe what your saying is anything but utter nonsense.
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:36 AM   #3699
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Why would people tell? A nice simple question from the curious simple one of the thread.

The answer is fairly easy my lad:

- Some because of moral reasons (ie: whistle blowers)

- Some because of ego reasons (ie: the surge of power one feels when one shows their secret knowledge)

- Some because of personal reasons (ie: unhappy employee)

- Some by accident (ie: someone "in the know" tells a friend who then tells someone else etc)

- Some secretly (ie: how anonymous tip lines work)


I embrace the creativity of some of the branches of riggedology, but the reality is that it requires this industry to be the only one that has ever existed in the history of man to have a perfect track record of absolutely zero people letting on about the "secret" if it all is the massive evil conspiracy that riggedologists believe it to be.

Still, it is quite entertaining to see riggedology continue to develop and branch to new and strange areas when presented with more and more actual data and logic. People have always been expressive and creative, and riggedologists are certainly no exception.

If you look well, you can find posts on internet like ex. software programer of full tilt saying that the deal is not fair, or like friend of stars programer saying that his friend said to him that the deal is not fair. But these are things that can´t be proved, such as a fact that it is not rigged.
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Old 05-27-2009, 08:53 AM   #3700
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Username^^ View Post
If you look well, you can find posts on internet like random stranger claims to be ex. software programer of full tilt saying that the deal is not fair
fixed.
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