The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition - Page 1461 - Internet Poker

Simple logic tests cannot prove whether or not rigging is taking place.

Simple logic can be used to determine that some half baked theories about rigging are nonsensical.

Can you understand the difference between the two situations?

In what world does simple logic constitute proof? BR and Wiki's!

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07-17-2011 , 02:31 PM

#36502

Wiki

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,939

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

Well done Wiki! Without a shred of evidence, you conclude and are willing to bet that BR is lying. Everyone else can see the illogical interpretation of a conversation but you pull out the shill manual, page two, and shout liar.

You two should swap the lunches your moms packs you before she puts you in the seat next to BR on the short bus.

Just because a logical step in an argument is invalid does not mean that all the initial assumptions are correct.

BR tried to make a point by making up a conversation with a poker site representative but being a cretin he couldn't even get that right.

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07-17-2011 , 02:31 PM

#36503

Wiki

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,939

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

In what world does simple logic constitute proof?

Well, try mathematics, for one.

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07-17-2011 , 02:37 PM

#36504

fezjones

banned

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,961

its rogged

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07-17-2011 , 02:42 PM

#36505

pooflinger

adept

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 850

ok just thought i would say that its confirmed now that full tilt poker was a bunch of crooks and steals players money.We cant argue that fact because its true and a fact. secondly i think this makes a bigger case that online poker is rigged because it shows the mindset of the scum bags who run and operate these garbage sites, will do any thing they please to faten there pocket .In conclusion full tilt ub ab 2 of the top 3 sites confirmed scum bag run .

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07-17-2011 , 02:52 PM

#36506

Lego05

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 24,904

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooflinger

Similar line of conversation that just happened extremely recently, though it was only in regards to Full Tilt:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

Committing bank fraud in order to send customers their money when the DOJ is trying to stop you from doing so really isn't at all related to rigging a poker RNG.

(I don't know for sure whether or not they actually committed bank fraud, but it seems like there's a good chance they did.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

I don't think that was the "stealing" referred to in the posts but keep drawing your imaginary distinctions between outright theft of players' funds and rigging to steal players' funds...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

I'm not a mind reader. I can't be certain what "stealing" he is referring to. But it seemed likely to me that it had something to do with the Black Friday situation:

If you know what he is referring to then please feel free to let me in on it.

As to stealing and rigging. I'm not drawing any distinction. If people want to consider sites rigging the RNG to be stealing from the player base I have no problems with that. If a site were to rig the RNG I would assume they would do it in a way that would increase the money the player base pays to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

And I can agree that committing bank fraud in order to send customers their money does not have a direct correlation to rigging a poker RNG.

But not segregating the players money from the operating expenses, not paying the players, sending a plane with 30 million to Columbia are all methods of stealing that do correlate to other methods.

It's good to know the Inspector Wiki Clouseauis on the case and is willing to to jump on the bandwagon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

I agree that violating their licensing agreement is a bad thing to do and they shouldn't do that, but them violating their licensing agreement by not segregating funds isn't stealing and really doesn't have anything to do with stealing unless they were actually stealing the funds that they weren't segregating, which I don't believe was the case. I think it is likely that they just ran their business in not the smartest manner, to say the least. It doesn't have anything to do with rigging the RNG.

As far as not paying the players: They were allegedly going as far as to commit bank fraud in order to pay their players. It's not like they weren't sending players money and instead were stealing it. They were trying to send people their money. Non-US players kept getting withdraws right up until the license got pulled. And the US players weren't not getting paid because Full Tilt was stealing the money. They were not getting paid because the DOJ took a ton of Full Tilt's money, Full Tilt credited deposits to US players' accounts and never actually got the money because of the DOJ going after processors (this may have been a bad business decision ... they probably shouldn't have immediately credited so much money to players' accounts without waiting to actually get it), and perhaps a few other reasons, but the basic point is that the US players weren't getting paid because Full Tilt didn't have enough money to pay them. Full Tilt, I believe, is currently trying to get investors in order to raise capital with which to pay US players. The last I've seen is that they are in discussions with a possible investor. This also has nothing to do with rigging the RNG.

I'm pretty sure you don't think anybody sent any plane full of money to Columbia and instead you just threw that in as an outrageous example of how to steal some money.

I'm not too happy with Full Tilt and how it seems that they made some quite poor business decisions and how this has affected the chances of me ever seeing some of my money again. I'm also not too happy with the US DOJ or many others who make up the US government.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

Lego,

You call it bad business decisions and bad management but I disagree. When a company pays its shareholders, pros, employees, financers at a rate that exceeds its actual receivables for months and months using money that belongs to other people it goes beyond bad business practices, it is theft. This issue did not start with BF, it was uncovered afterwards.

The plane story was about UB, I don't know if it is confirmed as reliable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arouet

There are obviously some real problems over at Full Tilt. But as I've said over and over: for this debate who cares? Let's stipulate that their crooks and would screw over their players anyway they could, if they could get away with it: does that take us anywhere in this debate?

I would argue that it doesn't bring us very far: do you disagree?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

I don't know all the details and I'm sure you don't either.

I'd be pretty surprised if you actually had information showing that Full Tilt were paying their employees more money per month than they were taking in from rake per month. But if you have it then post it.

I'm aware that they were honoring deposits without ever actually getting the money before Black Friday and that, that cost them quite a bit of money.

But companies have to keep paying their employees. They can't just not pay them. Paying their employees as the company operates doesn't make it theft when they then can't pay out to all US players.

It just makes it terrible and perhaps illegal business practices that they violated the terms of their license by not segregating funds. Also perhaps bad business decisions to keep honoring all of those deposits without actually receiving the money.

It's not theft. And again it has nothing to do with an RNG and the possibility of it being rigged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjou812

Lego, what do you call taking someone's money and paying your own bills with it, without tellling them you took it?

What do you call paying players money out of a non-segregated pool of money because you failed to collect 60 million in deposits?

What would you call it if your bank did it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

I already agreed with you that not segregating the money like they were supposed to is a bad thing to do and very likely is illegal.

But a business paying the expenses of the business with money in the business's accounts isn't really stealing. The obvious messed up thing is that, that money was either: 1. not supposed to be in their business accounts or 2. they were supposed to specifically say in their T&C's that they didn't segregate funds. They didn't do this, but that doesn't necessarily make it theft.

Theft generally involves an element of intent to deprive someone of something or to defraud someone. Just failing to either: segregate funds or include it in T&C's that they don't segregate funds doesn't seem like intent to deprive people of their money. It obviously could be horrible, or even illegal, management of the company.

And of course: The high level executives didn't take the money and start spending it in their individual capacities by buying sportscars and whatever. The business continued to use the funds in the business accounts in the normal operation of the business, such as paying employees.

They were trying to get their money back from the DOJ (the money the DOJ took) so that they could try to pay players, but to my knowledge they have yet to get any of that money. They continue to search for investors so that they can pay players.

Will they ever actually pay players, I don't know.

But fine .... if you want to say that Full Tilt stole money go ahead. I don't care. And that still has nothing to do with rigging an RNG.

P.S.

My bank takes my money and does all sorts of things with it without telling me what they're doing. I don't really know what you mean there.

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07-17-2011 , 02:53 PM

#36507

Darkus63

adept

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 947

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooflinger

You can't argue with that.

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07-17-2011 , 03:08 PM

#36508

caseycjc

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,728

Quote:

Originally Posted by blatantlyrigged

I was advised of this by a party poker support person years ago. I posted what he said many pages back. He was saying everyone gets an even chance. In other words, the deal is manipulated no matter how you look at it.

So let me get this str8, BR called PP 5 years ago and asked if the site was rigged. The CS rep, being an honest chap, inferred, yea basically it's rigged.
OK, I think I got it.

BR: Hi is the site rigged?
CS No, everyone gets an even chance.
BR Oh OK Thx., bye.

Or

BR: Hi is the site rigged?
CS: Yes, everyone gets an even chance.
BR: OK Thx, bye

Of course BR didn't persue this any further; he just hung up and wrote a post, LOL
I mean if you had that the slightest suspicion that the guy inferred it was rigged wouldn't you ask a few questions to clarify?

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07-17-2011 , 03:21 PM

#36509

Wiki

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,939

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseycjc

This is blatantlyrigged we're talking about.

Not someone with a clue.

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07-17-2011 , 03:31 PM

#36510

BadNewzKennelz1

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 72

Has any site EVER been 100% "confirmed rigged"? And by that I mean actual manipulated dealing, not superuser cheating or even house bots/house players (which I don't think have ever happened either).

Last edited by BadNewzKennelz1; 07-17-2011 at 03:40 PM.

Quote

07-17-2011 , 04:47 PM

#36511

blatantlyrigged

banned

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,603

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

This is me we're talking about.

Not someone with a clue.

Fair enough

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07-17-2011 , 05:10 PM

#36512

Lego05

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 24,904

Quote:

Originally Posted by blatantlyrigged

Fair enough

Should we start a thread devoted to proving that blatantlyrigged rigs people's quotes?

I think we could put that thread to bed pretty quickly.

Quote

07-17-2011 , 05:11 PM

#36513

caseycjc

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,728

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

Stop rigging people's quotes.

Touche'

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07-17-2011 , 05:14 PM

#36514

Lego05

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 24,904

@ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I decided I didn't like that line. I changed it.

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07-17-2011 , 05:16 PM

#36515

Bingo_Boy

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,872

Quote:

Originally Posted by blatantlyrigged

Fair enough to call me a ****** because that's what I am

This juvenile game of changing somebodys post because you have nothing to say is good fun, isn't it? It makes you look like a pathetic little idiot but who cares, it is only the internet.

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07-17-2011 , 05:16 PM

#36516

caseycjc

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,728

I'm glad I quoted it b4 u changed it, it was perfect..........

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07-17-2011 , 05:17 PM

#36517

gss999

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 93

Either Lock Poker is rigged or I'm on the worst downswing of my life. I've never seen so many odd things happen in my life.

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07-17-2011 , 05:24 PM

#36518

blatantlyrigged

banned

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,603

Quote:

Originally Posted by gss999

Either Lock Poker is rigged or I'm on the worst downswing of my life. I've never seen so many odd things happen in my life.

Rigged beyond a doubt, believe me. Now get ready for all the lies from the many ignorant people in here. Bingo_boy would top that list. Whatever you do, dont try to reason with them, most have severe mental problems.

Quote

07-17-2011 , 05:28 PM

#36519

Wiki

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,939

Quote:

Originally Posted by blatantlyrigged

Rigged beyond a doubt, believe me. Now get ready for all the lies from the many ignorant people in here. Bingo_boy would top that list. Whatever you do, dont try to reason with them, most have severe mental problems.

I'm hurt.

Really, really, hurt.

Quote

07-17-2011 , 05:30 PM

#36520

blatantlyrigged

banned

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,603

Quote:

Originally Posted by gss999

Either Lock Poker is rigged or I'm on the worst downswing of my life. I've never seen so many odd things happen in my life.

Were you making a profit before this downswing? Possible cash out? U.S. player?

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07-17-2011 , 05:31 PM

#36521

blatantlyrigged

banned

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,603

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

I'm hurt.

Really, really, hurt.

Sorry, very tough decision between you two.

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07-17-2011 , 05:32 PM

#36522

Lego05

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 24,904

I haven't noticed anything wrong about Lock Poker. Post the relevant statistics.

And wouldn't the Merge network take care of the deal for all of its sites?

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07-17-2011 , 05:40 PM

#36523

blatantlyrigged

banned

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,603

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lego05

I haven't noticed anything wrong about Lock Poker. Post the relevant statistics.

Quote

07-17-2011 , 05:48 PM

#36524

caseycjc

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,728

damn that Merge, SCR in BB 44 flops K4K, c/c turns a blank I bet/call river K, youch, friggin riggin, Villian had 66 counterfeits me....lol (small pot, thankfully)