Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Discussion of Poker Sites General discussion of online poker sites.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,444 34.94%
No 5,522 56.02%
Undecided 892 9.05%
Voters: 9858. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-01-2009, 11:15 AM   #3001
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

A convert!!

cue big band
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 11:28 AM   #3002
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
A convert!!

cue big band
I dont understand very well what are you trying to say, but while you was calling me a rigtard, other side of debate was calling me shill. :-| I not one or other, i dont defend one or other side of debate, i just know that there is no suficient proof to prove one or another, and i will defend or deny any argument that looks logical to me. Today is friday, and i am drun as hell, after almos 48hrs poker session and another 12 of clubbing i still cant get no sleep ( drugs sex clubs and techno music)
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 12:39 PM   #3003
K13
banned
 
K13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 531
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

KJ vs KK , damn I feel good, my two jacks are coming.
JJ vs A10, oh I'm ****ed, here comes the ace.
K13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 01:28 PM   #3004
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
KJ vs KK , damn I feel good, my two jacks are coming.
JJ vs A10, oh I'm ****ed, here comes the ace.
Wow, what exciting new evidence you've brought to the party.

You might as well just type "it's rigged" and move on, because it accomplishes the same thing.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 01:42 PM   #3005
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by K13 View Post
KJ vs KK , damn I feel good, my two jacks are coming.
JJ vs A10, oh I'm ****ed, here comes the ace.
I think there's no doubt that you are a regular who's using a gimmick account to take the piss out of rigtards by parody.

Congratulations.

Very good.

Sometimes it's the most effective way.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 02:43 PM   #3006
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpw View Post
I think there's no doubt that you are a regular who's using a gimmick account to take the piss out of rigtards by parody.

Congratulations.

Very good.

Sometimes it's the most effective way.
qpw - it's a nice thought, but a look back through K13's post history will probably change your mind. I think they are a regular, perhaps a winning online player, but they seem to genuinely believe that the sites juice things by fiddling with the deal. Yes, they use humor and sarcasm, but just to make fun of what they believe to be true.

I know a number of players who think this way (one who is a good friend I play live with), that they can beat the games on FT and they have no intention of quitting, but that those bad beats just can't possibly be random. They are smart enough to understand all the logical reasons and statistical proof in the world, but it won't get rid of their skepticism and belief it is just something you have to put up with. K13 is like that.

Last edited by spadebidder; 05-01-2009 at 02:48 PM.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 03:54 PM   #3007
DMoogle
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DMoogle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern VA, USA
Posts: 7,131
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
qpw - it's a nice thought, but a look back through K13's post history will probably change your mind. I think they are a regular, perhaps a winning online player, but they seem to genuinely believe that the sites juice things by fiddling with the deal. Yes, they use humor and sarcasm, but just to make fun of what they believe to be true.

I know a number of players who think this way (one who is a good friend I play live with), that they can beat the games on FT and they have no intention of quitting, but that those bad beats just can't possibly be random. They are smart enough to understand all the logical reasons and statistical proof in the world, but it won't get rid of their skepticism and belief it is just something you have to put up with. K13 is like that.
That must be absolutely infuriating. I hate people who ignore logic.
DMoogle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 07:42 PM   #3008
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
qpw - it's a nice thought, but a look back through K13's post history will probably change your mind. I think they are a regular, perhaps a winning online player, but they seem to genuinely believe that the sites juice things by fiddling with the deal. Yes, they use humor and sarcasm, but just to make fun of what they believe to be true.

I know a number of players who think this way (one who is a good friend I play live with), that they can beat the games on FT and they have no intention of quitting, but that those bad beats just can't possibly be random. They are smart enough to understand all the logical reasons and statistical proof in the world, but it won't get rid of their skepticism and belief it is just something you have to put up with. K13 is like that.
You may well be correct.

I just don't see how anyone can post a couple of imaginary hands that do not mean a single thing in support of some daft rigged theory.
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 09:15 PM   #3009
DRybes
Pooh-Bah
 
DRybes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,041
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

I'm not prepared to check two and a half thousand posts to see if this has been posted before, but here's an interesting demonstration that nearly all "theorists" approach the wrong way the first time. If you can understand the solution to the problem, you will suddenly see which way of thinking in the rigged argument actually has overwhelming evidence supporting it.

The reason I provide it is because it has nothing to do with poker, detaching it enough to potentially change a mind or two instead of create such a conflict.

http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson3.html
DRybes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 09:44 PM   #3010
PeaceFr0g
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 118
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
qpw - it's a nice thought, but a look back through K13's post history will probably change your mind. I think they are a regular, perhaps a winning online player, but they seem to genuinely believe that the sites juice things by fiddling with the deal. Yes, they use humor and sarcasm, but just to make fun of what they believe to be true.

I know a number of players who think this way (one who is a good friend I play live with), that they can beat the games on FT and they have no intention of quitting, but that those bad beats just can't possibly be random. They are smart enough to understand all the logical reasons and statistical proof in the world, but it won't get rid of their skepticism and belief it is just something you have to put up with. K13 is like that.
Does your friend have a strong background playing live? Until recently, most of my play has been live and as I've mentioned elsewhere, my mindset is not much different than that of your friend. But as long as I'm making an hourly rate that I deem worth my time, I continue to play. Even though something doesn't seem right to me about online Vs. live play.
PeaceFr0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 09:45 PM   #3011
senjitsu
banned
 
senjitsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: λαγχάν
Posts: 3,058
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRybes View Post
I'm not prepared to check two and a half thousand posts to see if this has been posted before, but here's an interesting demonstration that nearly all "theorists" approach the wrong way the first time. If you can understand the solution to the problem, you will suddenly see which way of thinking in the rigged argument actually has overwhelming evidence supporting it.

The reason I provide it is because it has nothing to do with poker, detaching it enough to potentially change a mind or two instead of create such a conflict.

http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson3.html
im ashamed to say my first instinct was wrong (though it only took me a minute to figure it out), even though i know about false contrapositives.
senjitsu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2009, 09:51 PM   #3012
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRybes View Post
I'm not prepared to check two and a half thousand posts to see if this has been posted before, but here's an interesting demonstration that nearly all "theorists" approach the wrong way the first time. If you can understand the solution to the problem, you will suddenly see which way of thinking in the rigged argument actually has overwhelming evidence supporting it.

The reason I provide it is because it has nothing to do with poker, detaching it enough to potentially change a mind or two instead of create such a conflict.

http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons/lesson3.html
Black Swan thesis. Also see Taleb's Fooled by Randomness.

Is your point that solid confirmed evidence can immediately disprove the statement "online poker is not rigged", but no amount of anecdotal evidence of "not rigged" will ever prove the statement? That's kind of obvious if it is indeed what you are saying. I've said before no one is trying to prove the negative.

Most rational players realize that there certainly could be some rigging going on somewhere and no one is trying to prove the quoted statement in the first paragraph, even if we haven't seen any evidence to disprove it. But as long as the statistics continue to confirm the "not rigged" idea, it doesn't much matter if there is some rigging going on somewhere that is a black swan waiting to be discovered. Poker is about probabilities, and if the statistics say the game is fair, then the game is pretty much fair. At least where I play.

So I guess I missed your point.

Last edited by spadebidder; 05-01-2009 at 10:07 PM.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 01:53 PM   #3013
repcorpus24
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 112
Bodog Players Only

Was looking for anyone who has played at least 1 mil hands on bodog and pokerstars who actually thinks the rngs are truly random. Maybe I am a rigtard but for those who are not you have no proof either. I am saying that there is absolutely no way the RNG's are the same. Bodogs RNG is different than pokerstars plain and simple. TY
repcorpus24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 02:02 PM   #3014
philsrightthere
banned
 
philsrightthere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 572
Re: Bodog Players Only

ok so? switch to pstars then
philsrightthere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 02:35 PM   #3015
Siegmund
Pooh-Bah
 
Siegmund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,154
Re: Bodog Players Only

If this is true, Bodog is about to get a whole lot of new customers. I've always won a LOT more there than on Stars
Siegmund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 03:23 PM   #3016
Username^^
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,784
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

i feel the same on ipoker vs cake vs fulltilt ..
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 04:03 PM   #3017
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: Bodog Players Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by repcorpus24 View Post
Maybe I am a rigtard but for those who are not you have no proof either.
You can't prove a negative.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 06:02 PM   #3018
tk1133
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,221
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

spade what poker site do you work for again?
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 06:23 PM   #3019
Wiki
Pooh-Bah
 
Wiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: [2,5]
Posts: 5,849
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
spade what poker site do you work for again?
This has to be about the lamest of your 'tactics' (I don't even like to dignify such a feeble ploy with the epithet: 'tactic').
Wiki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 06:34 PM   #3020
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
spade what poker site do you work for again?
What post prompted that? I don't work in the poker business at all. Furthermore, after playing regularly close to a year (not counting some time on Party years ago), I'm a ~20% net loser in online tourney play, and I believe the game is honest. I'm up a little in online cash play, and I'm up in live play (mostly tourneys and I play in a league). But I blame my online tourney record on my own play, not on a nefarious doomswitch. I'm working on getting better rather than looking for excuses. I recognize that online plays different from live, and it is tougher to beat at similar stakes.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 06:39 PM   #3021
solucky
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,480
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
What post prompted that? I don't work in the poker business at all. Furthermore, after playing regularly close to a year (not counting some time on Party years ago), I'm a ~20% net loser in online tourney play, and I believe the game is honest. I'm up a little in online cash play, and I'm up in live play (mostly tourneys and I play in a league). But I blame my online tourney record on my own play, not on a nefarious doomswitch. I'm working on getting better rather than looking for excuses.

I am up 30-40 K, and i am sure that the games are not random.

For myself its proofed that they create action for higher rake, exspecially the blinds are hot online.

But who cares as long you can make money, anytime better than livetourneys with 40% RAKE (incl.travelling) like WSOP, EPT...
solucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 06:49 PM   #3022
spadebidder
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,906
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by solucky View Post
....i am sure that the games are not random
...
For myself its proofed that they create action for higher rake, exspecially the blinds are hot online.
We've seen some pretty convincing statistics lately that this isn't the case. One study showed that the flop cards come in the expected distribution when looking at ~175 million flops on major sites. Another analysis of about 102 million hands showed that preflop all-ins win at the amount they should, at all preflop equity ranges. There will be more coming, as there are a couple groups now studying billion+ hand databases they've accumulated.

Last edited by spadebidder; 05-02-2009 at 06:55 PM.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 08:32 PM   #3023
PeaceFr0g
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 118
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
There will be more coming, as there are a couple groups now studying billion+ hand databases they've accumulated.
I would feel much more comfortable if I knew they were including folded hands in their sample size/study. I'm not sure if you ever answered that question. How are they viewing folded hands? Because of what we previously discussed, no sample size is big enough if they don't include folded hands in the equation. I'm not at all concerned about doom switches, that flops are not random, hole cards are not random, or that AA does not hold up what it statistically should overall. I'm simply concerned that I might be missing equity.
PeaceFr0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 09:02 PM   #3024
otatop
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: unstuckpolitics.com
Posts: 12,727
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceFr0g View Post
I would feel much more comfortable if I knew they were including folded hands in their sample size/study. I'm not sure if you ever answered that question. How are they viewing folded hands? Because of what we previously discussed, no sample size is big enough if they don't include folded hands in the equation. I'm not at all concerned about doom switches, that flops are not random, hole cards are not random, or that AA does not hold up what it statistically should overall. I'm simply concerned that I might be missing equity.
The Cigital study got every cash hand played on Stars at 25NL and above for all of December 2008 with all the hole cards. They "only" got 100 million hands, but they had the complete hole card information for every player at the table for all the hands.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 09:07 PM   #3025
River Flush
grinder
 
River Flush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 691
Re: Bodog Players Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegmund View Post
If this is true, Bodog is about to get a whole lot of new customers. I've always won a LOT more there than on Stars
sigh, bodog.
River Flush is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive