Plo is an awful game live. Way too slow. Hold em is an awful game online. These are my opinions.

I will be focusing on more positive conversations. Every point I make is met with some snide remark so I will not be participating in this conversation. Thank you leggo, bobo and Monterroy for your thoughtful input. I hope I learned some things from you guys and maybe u learned something from me. I wish u well in life.
Peace

don't lit tha bashterds git ya down...

Pareidolia.

7 yrs of people going fulltard. This thread will never die.

my experience on their site has been people make top hands, quads, full house, significantly more than other sites i have played on.

How do I convince a programmer that Poker isn't rigged?

I was drunk at a bar with a good friend tonight and he (not a poker player) kept telling me that I should learn about programming and logic before saying that online poker isn't rigged.

His argument seemed to be that it would be impossible to verify whether a game is rigged or not because we can never have a sample size big enough to prove whether the game is in fact rigged or not...

I admit that I don't possess a great knowledge in statisctics or logic but I told him about the almost infinite number of situations that comes up in a poker game (%ofc player hitting a specific set on the river) and said the those numbers are analysed by inspectors and **** (felt like talking out of my ass)
and his response was still... "learn programming and logic and you'll see how rigged it is" that argument felt really dumb to me because I'm sure that there are a bunch of programmers who that poker is probably not rigged because it really doesn't have to be. As long as there are fish depositing and a small percentage of regs making money there aren't that many reasons to go thru the risk of rigging the software.... yes, I am still drunk...

A programmer isn't a statistician.




This:

is false.

Ok so prove it? No one cares that u have stats that say u hit a flush the right amount of times, no one cares that I get dealt aces the correct amount of times. Let's look at when u do hit a flush waht does the other players have for a hand? When u do get AA whT do other players have? Deciding if a game is rigged it not has nothing to do with how many hands you or your opponent hits. Long time ago poker stars sent me a graph of all the hands I had been dealt. Every preflop combo, in the column next it to was all the times I should have gotten the hands, and u know what they were almost all exactly right. I then said now let me see what my opponents had when I has AA KK QQ JJ TT AK and AQ. They said oh we don't have that info. Right cuz that is the info that matters.
This is why u will never be able to prove anything.
So bovada claimed all last year that gaming associates checks their rng regularly. According to en email I reduced in feb of 2014 gaming associates claim they ended their relation ship wih bovada. I repetlay told them this and they still said gaming associates was checking. So this year they now say itech labs is doing it. I sent 2 emails to itech labs asking when the last time anyone was in to bovada. Both emails go unanswered. More then likely cuz they never been there.
Remember one thing in life......people do lots of things to make money no matter how much they already got. I hate the argument they are maing enough money already...says who? Was full tilt makin enough money? Martha Stewart is worth a friggin billion dollars and went to jail for 9 months due to greed and not wanting to lose $250,000 are u kidding me? Greed my friends, don't ever underestimate it

i already explained to you how to easily prove this. do your own damn leg work and quit saying the same thing over and over.

And I already told u it can't be done with out the other players hole cards and a sizable hand history sample. Now u tell me where I am going to get a big hand sample that include opponents hole cards?

you realise that you get to see your opponents' hole cards at showdown, right?

I think your friend is correct that you can't prove whether an online game is rigged.
No matter how big you get your sample size, you just can't prove it, because the poker sites can find many ways to fool you, I mean your statistics seems nothing wrong, yet the game can still be rigged.

I am not a programmer,but if I work for poker sites to program a rigged game, I can at least figure out 3 ways:

1.Before one's hands reach 100K, I would rig your game as I like. Because if you tell people your statistics is skewed, people will say your sample size is too small. They will tell you to check back after you reach 100K hands.

2. I will make a lot of robots playing the same game so a player who has AA vs KK 100 times is in real game vs real people, but what he get KK vs AA 100 times is playing with robots.

3. If computer want a player win, it can make this player win big pots and lose small pots while keep his statistics looks alright.
Let say in a game he has AA vs KK 3 times and only win once.So he seems unlucky in this game. But he could end up winning money because those 2 AA vs KK are small pots and the one he win is very big pot. Because when computer check it is a big pot, it assigns the win to this player, and whenever the pots are small, it assign the pots to his opponents.

I can only figure out 3 ways but there are people much smarter than me, so I believe they can figure out much more to fool you guys.

Many people think poker sites have no reasons to rig the game, but they do.

Some poker sites close players account if the players win too much. Why they do this? Because winning players will kill losing players very fast.
You know sport betting? Almost every sport betting sites limit your bet if you win too much. You bet $1000 10 times and lose them all, go ahead just keep betting.
You bet $1000 10 times and win them all, sorry, next bet you can only bet $100.
Why sport betting sites want to do this? Because if they let player keep winning, the balance of winning players and losing players will be broken and sport betting sites will end up losing their customers.

For the same reason, poker sites have motivation to rig the game.
The difference is, in pokers sites, winning players have much bigger edge over losing players than sport betting. So this problem is much bigger in poker sites than in sport betting sites.

I am not saying poker sites do rig the game.
They have motivation, and they have technology to do it, but that doesn't mean they did it.
The point is, you can't prove online poker is rigged, but you can't prove they are not rigged either.

See how easily you will share how you would rig the games? No doubt that guy's drinking buddy would do the same on some of the programming he has done.

How come none of the programmers behind site rigs have yet to talk?

People can buy hands by the millions, or datamine hands, or share hands with other players ( Poker Edge did this for a while).


Your magical robots would be discovered by regs easily. Check out some of the bot threads to see how people have discovered genuine curious play that is quite a bit more complex than your simplistic model.

Easily filtered for within Holdem Manager. This rig would be caught quickly by regs who would notice that some lower volume players always win big pots.


Your rig examples are very weak, easily discovered, and you are happy to talk about them, which helps prove if they actually existed they would have been easily discovered by now.

All the best.

"People can buy hands by the millions, or datamine hands, or share hands with other players ( Poker Edge did this for a while)."

Obviously You didn't understand my point.
My point is if your hands are less than 100K, people will not pay attention no matter how skewed your statistics is.

2. Those robots are made by amateur。
If poker sites make robots with programs experts, you won't be able to find who they are.

3.

"Your magical robots would be discovered by regs easily. Check out some of the bot threads to see how people have discovered genuine curious play that is quite a bit more complex than your simplistic model."

You misunderstood again.

It doesn't have to be "lower volume players always win big pots."
( You used this sentence because only in this situation that you will be able to find )
For any player that win 2 big pots out of 5 pots , the program changes it to win 3 big pots out of 5 pots, will effectively rig the game in a big way.

Ok. So I should call every river bet or my opponent should call every ever bet? And if they don't then I needto play about 500 million hands tnsee enough show downs I assume
A few simple thin to realise is this. If any odds are off say 2% or if they are all off 2% that makes a huge differnce in outcomes over time. Casinos have made billions on 5%. Successful spots bettors me loads of money off55% wins 45% losses. So just for example if Ak runs Into 88 Or some smaller pair 2% more often then it should over 500 million hands it would matter. The outcome is not important it's the matchup that matter, and no one will ever check for this. Hey only check for winning percentages cuz they figure all the rig tards are complaining about bad beats.

Depends on what your rig belief is (and riggies have all kinds of beliefs). Many riggie beliefs would not need this many hands to prove if true. Most riggie theories (like action hands) would not even make the sites money.

Additionally, if a riggie ever put forth an actual specific theory (they pretty much never do) then that theory can be tested in lots of player databases to confirm if it is true.




Wow, even rooms long since dead and closed would not have the secret robot builders ever reveal their dark secret in a world where everybody tells everything (check out youtube sometime). I wonder what the programmer for the Aztec Poker has been up to for the past decade since it shut. Perhaps in a cave keeping the secret...

This must be the only industry where that impossible form of human behavior takes place, perhaps because it is needed for all riggie theories.



You would laugh at yourself if you understood the power of the database programs and many of the players who use them. Your rig would be discovered right away, even if somehow the programmers (or other people in on it) never told for every room.

Take a read through the analysis done in this thread to discover pretty obscure softplaying. Look at the stats they looked at (that you probably never knew existed), and after that read your posts again about how a site just needs to magically increase the number of big pots for a player to win that nobody will catch. You may as well add the fireworks Party Poker (or Paradise - I forget which) used to have for a player when they won a hand, as even that would not even make your rigs more obvious.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...-tl-dr-757267/


All the best.

Go back to read my posts 5 times more.

I never said poker sites are rigged.
I will not answer you anymore , who misunderstood almost all my points , and who kept adding more misunderstanding in every new post.

you don't strike me as the type of guy who ever folds AA, but that's beside the point.

The point is simply that if you're saying you're getting coolered an inordinate amount of the time, you can test this in your own HH files. I'm not actually sure exactly what you're claiming to be wrong tbh; I'm going to ask you to elaborate now but I suspect you're going to reply with a vague, nonsensical rant about "something" not being "quite right"

Yeah, you said that you are not a programmer, but you could come up with 3 easy ways to rig it that would never be caught. If you want to believe that does not show you believe it is rigged that is your choice, but that programming assumption is a pure riggie belief structure, so much so that it is actually one of my riggie commandments.

Commandment 7: Thou shalt believe anything is possible with software

Your programming rig examples just happened to be really bad.


I guess stick to fake programming...


All the best.

Huh? Not sure where u got I am getting coolered from. I am saying there is no way to prove any site is rigged without millions of hand histories that include other people hole cards. Not sure your point here

The big concern with the study is ps and ft found him not quilty of anything. Wow how does the site with the best security miss it but a player proves it? Makes u wonder what else they are missing

His point is that you see the other person's hole cards whenever you do get to showdown, so you and everyone else can test any of your theories by looking at those hands.

Pick a theory; state it; test it; give your results here. Others can test it, too, with their histories of hands that went to showdown.

This has nothing to do with whether the deal is rigged or not.

i dont know what it is, but something is wrong with you. just cant tell what it is...but you are defenitly fishy/scummy

dont take this as an offense, its just my opinion.

5 million hands at showdown? Ok see u in 75 years

yeah, as Mike says, my point is you already have a load of HHs with opponents' cards exposed. It's especially likely that the hands in which you had premium hole cards will have gone to showdown, so you'll have surely have a decent collection of those!

You could make this a lot easier by simply stating what you think the problem is. I'm gathering from your recent posts that you think you're getting dealt big hands at about the right frequency, but you're coming up against other big hands more often than you think you ought to. This would be pretty easy to prove or disprove if you simply stated the specific complaint and offered the HHs to support it, for example.