That's not a plan, that's calling for lol pot odds and hoping to hit.

You clearly don't believe in fold equity
You don't believe there is any other way to play than call, call, call
You can't see opponents bets for what they are
You only believe it's rigged and nothing to do with you.

When you get advise or feedback at work (or school as your attitude is that of a 18yr old) do you stick your fingers in your ears and scream "nahnahnahnah not listening"?

(Opponent was Russian or Eastern European)

Oh for goodness sake, I was still a 90% favourite and so still should be winning the pot even without a bet. Betting in this situation would have only cost me more money, as station gonna station, he'd call, then shove river and given he's shortstacked I'd be calling that. And if he didn't bet you'd probably say I should be betting river myself with TPTK.

Preemptive ridicule of the truth. Me not betting the turn is irrelevant - 9 times out of 10 I should be winning anyway. But 888poker ALWAYS decides to screw me in these spots.


Calling 3 min donks is hardly the same as 'calling 3 streets of betting'. One of them puts most of your stack in the middle. The other puts in 6 big blinds. I've already said if I only had ace high on the river I'd have folded to a half pot bet.


Today really summed it up. I was back up to $103 dollars then 888poker has me lose that 200 big blind pot which brings me back down to $99. I don't know how much more evidence you need. There's been like 6 or 7 times I've got above $100 only to have 888 bring me back down to just below it.

'LOL pot odds'? What would you suggest we use when deciding whether to call a bet instead? Pot odds are like, a cornerstone of successful poker playing.

I don't think our fold equity is that high is this spot. We're up against 2 guys who have already shown calling station tendancies (limping then calling a raise preflop), and one of them is a shortstack who might easily decide to shove light over a raise. And there's 2 villains to get through, not just one.

As for feedback, my reaction depends on the quality of the feedback and the quality of the person providing it. There's plenty of great stuff here on the forums, no doubt. I was a loser at 2nl when I arrived and 25k hands later had become a winner. I wouldn't be a winner at 4nl without the help of the forum either, despite 888 stealing my roll every chance they get. That doesn't mean every thread is full of good advice though and it definitely doesn't mean every poster is the next durrrr. This thread is evidence of that. 'Cbet bluff multiway when you've got no pot equity', lol.

Gee Willikers, you had under 25% equity on the flop, so should you be winning the pot then, even without a bet?

Your hatred of fold equity is admirable.


So you are saying that since he never folds that you should not bet/raise the turn with a made hand, because he might suck out on you?

Yeah, hard to see why you win tiny pots and lose big ones playing AK / AQ the way you do! Oh wait, it is the site that is at fault, certainly not your gifted play.




I know you like smashing the call button, but the vast majority of the time you will not get one of your "6 clean outs" and you will end up call/call/calling or call/call/folding ( I assume you would use the same approach with a straight or flush draw).

Dude, that is the definition of calling station, and when you call the "2 BB bet" on the flop what you are saying is that you will happily call 6 BB in bets without improving (or else you will fold the river). People can blocking bet you to death and all you will do is swear most of the time about donks, lose a big pot when your hand improves (but not enough), and win a small pot a minority of the times.

Solid game plan, you should write a book on post flop play.




If you genuinely think they care if you win $103 or $99 then do not play there for a while once you are above the $100 mark. It is completely insane, but even more so is that you continue to play there and whine about it.




Not when they get misused. You have no plan for the hand, so you will be pot odds to death over and over as I mentioned above.


You did not even raise when you got your card. Fold equity does not exist in your world, you like smashing the call button.



Given the massive exploitable flaws in your game, you will literally get torn apart if you ever try to move up to above 25NL, so you should thank 888 for their massive and costly conspiracy to keep your bankroll below $100.

All the best.

Have you put the hand in microstakes yet?

There's a link to independently tested payout and RNG reports on 888's website. There's also a bit of description of the auditors' testing process here.

Course, they could all be in on it together...

Not necessarily. If you got all in pre with KK against AA five times and lost all of them, you'd be running below EV.

How did the people playing higher stakes games get there? Are you suggesting that they all moved over from different sites and none at all moved up from lower stakes within 888?

I'm a fellow nano player and it certainly happens to me on Full Tilt. In the six weeks or so from mid October to the end of November I played 20k hands of 2NL, with an all-in EV about 10 buyins higher than my actual winnings. [Giraffe.] Since then, my first 8k hands of 5NL I'm four buyins below EV. (And that doesn't include the guy that 3-bet me with 86o, called a 4bet oop and flopped a straight. Pretty sure I'll get that cheeseburger back soon though...)

It's really just not a big deal. At all.

Have a google of "buyins below EV" to find other threads on runbad that is mostly far worse than yours. People keep telling you that it's just variance because it is. Accept it; concentrate on making the best decisions; ignore the results of individual hands, and drop the victim mentality. Or take up chess.

Pot odds plus a plan as to what you are going to do when you face a bigger bet on the turn, what you are going to do if you miss, what cards you are going to bluff at, what will be the minimum bet size you can bluff to take it down on scare card, what maximum value bet you can get if you hit.

You know stuff that might add up to a plan.

I was favourite preflop. What's your point? It was played perfectly up to the turn, at which point I should be winning anyway.

Pokertracker shows me as a winning player with both AK and AQ, as well as the offsuit version of those hands. Try again.

The vast majority of the time I won't hit an out, yeah. But when I'm getting such great pot odds I'm getting the price I need to try and hit one of those outs.

I'll call 6bb in bets unimproved, because 6 outs twice mean I've got a 24% chance of improving, and when I do I might be able to get more money out of my opponent. It's the same principle behind calling a bet with your flush draw - you do it because when you hit you might get paid off big which makes up for the times you don't hit.


Why should I have to do this? I just want a fair game, I shouldn't have to keep switching sites to ensure this happens until I get another monthly allowance from 888.

There's hardly any fold equity in situations like these (4nl, calling station villain who is shortstacked).

Yeah I maybe should have raised but the point behind the hand was 888 LOVES to give the donks a great river card. As happened here. Me not betting is irrelevant, I should still be winning that hand 90% of the time.

My bankroll is $230 thanks to some tournament wins - it's not total bankroll they restrict, it's 'winnings'. Not sure if they have a seperate quota for both cash games and tournies or if it's just one pooled fund - I don't play tournies anymore.

No **** I'd get beaten at 50nl - if I could beat that limit, why do you think I'd be playing 4nl? I'd be going to the stake where I could make the most money, no?

But for anyone trying to move up the stakes, having 888 steal 10 buyins from you every 40k hands is a HUGE obstacle to overcome. Trying to move up under those conditions is extremely slow going due to the need to wait until 888 gives you a new monthly quota of winnings. I see people talk about how it's possible to get from 2nl-25nl in a few months, but guess what, most of them played on Stars where the game isn't rigged. It's not possible on 888 due to the way the software is set up.

The point is whining about equities on prior streets in relatively small pots is meaningless, especially with your calling station ways. You continue to whine about the equity you had on the turn and preflop, yet ignore that you had low equity on the flop. You cannot have it both ways!


You should be a poker millionaire any day now with your flawless approach to the game, if only the evil sites stopped you from becoming a hundredaire...



One needs to with you since you never understand what people are telling you. Every poker player will win long term with AK and AQ (assuming similar stakes).

You win a lot less with those hands than players who know how to play better post flop, and if you compared your non showdown winnings and showdown winnings with a solid reg you would have a lot more to rationalize away with a rig.

Let me try to dumb it down for you. You win a lot less than you should with those hands, even if overall you win with those hands.


The Mayor of Calling Station called and wants to give you a key to the city.



The mayor called again thanking you for your support.




Create a new account with a friend/family member like I told you. Move up in stakes a lot so you can win more than $100 before they put a force field on you, or at least win $100 with the new account knowing you have evaded their evil forces.



The mayor nominated you for station of the year. Hopefully the award is shiny.



The game you play would be a losing one at even 10 NL.



Other people move up because they improve at the game. You will not.

Anyway, get back to the Mayor, he is waiting for you to call.

All the best.

This.

Looking at your post history, (I'm talking outside this thread), you don't listen to anyone. Even the KK hand you had to argue.

I'm done for bit see you all again in another month to catch up on the latest riggie theories.

I admit I did cheat and read his thread early in our chat

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...t-pot-1396316/

where it is obvious once he has his mind made up about something (especially a poker term he does not use properly) that he will stick with it to the bitter end. I expected some fun entertainment from him with a through discussion of a hand where he could bust out all of his poker knowledge and he definitely did not disappoint.

I still do not get why other shills are annoyed at this guy, they would rather debate a person who spams bad beats, or a geezer who scrawls undocumented ideas on sticky notes about equalsubsadwhiches or whatever?

How often can one get a donk to expand on their approach to the game? This is a fun opportunity.

This makes little sense. You really need to give up on this played perfectly thing.

You honestly should take a step back. You posted on here a few weeks ago, and it was plain to see that you were truly awful at poker. I, and others, attempted to help you out, and you seemed to have taken some of that stuff on board. This is great, but it does NOT mean that you are now awesome at poker, it just means that you are not as bad as you were.

Poker is a complex game. That is why this website exists. If there was a way to learn and get good enough at the game in 6 weeks we would not still be here talking about it years later. Also, the game itself would die for fairly obvious reasons.

It isn't 888. It is the game of poker. It is built into the mechanics of the game. It is why fish call with garbage, because they hit a hand sometimes and those are the times that they remember.

No-one is stealing anything from you.

You are not as good as you think you are, and even if you were you will still lose hands that you were at one point a favourite to win.

The mental aspect of poker is hugely important, and you are very far off base when it comes to this. Your sense of entitlement is huge, and you have serious tilt issues around this.

And here's a big part of the reason why you're running break-even (besides that you're not very good at poker - but you don't really need to be very good at poker to beat micros).

Tilt.

Take a break. Do not have anything to do with poker for a week. Don't play, don't read 2+2, don't watch any videos.

Results oriented thinking.

There are two reasons why you are wrong.

In this specific hand, you are wrong because if you raise the flop (or the turn) there is a significant chance you win the hand right there and never see river or get sucked out on.

(Remember despite your protestations when you started posting BBV threads, you got most of your money in behind in this hand. You were only ahead preflop and on the turn).

However, all the other hands you misplay in this way dwarf this one in importance. In all those other hands you either:

1 - Never catch up on the turn and lose money by being a calling station (you never fold out better hands).
2 - Fail to extract maximum value when you have the best hand or catch a better hand that holds up. If villain is such a calling station as you say, let's ignore your misplayed flop and concentrate on the turn. Instead of calling turn let's say you make a reasonable raise to 10bb which villain calls (pot = 32bb). Then the river is a blank and you make a half pot bet of 16bb which villain calls.

When you win (which you do 88.61% of the time) you win 38bb (12bb already in the pot, villain calls 10bb and 16bb)

Of course, villain will suck-out 11.36% of the time. But even assuming worst case scenario and he only ever check/calls river (or check/raises river which we're obviously folding) then we will lose 26bb. (Again, this is worst case - sometimes he will donk river and we will make a disciplined fold against a calling station).

The expected value of this line is:

38(.8861) - 26(.1136)
33.6718 - 2.9536
30.7182

So the EV of this line is almost 31bb. And keep in mind that the EV of raising flop is going to be significantly higher due to pot building.

Now lets' compare to the EV of your line as played. You call turn. And either call 10bb on river or bet 10bb on river yourself if villain checks.

When you win, you win 24bb (12bb already in the pot, villains 2bb and 10bb bets)

When you lose, you lose 12bb.

The expected value of this line is:

24(.8861) - 12(.1136)
21.2664 - 1.3632
20.3008

So the EV of this line is a little more than 20bb.

Over the long term, you're pissing away 10bb (at best, there are a bunch of edge cases we haven't considered where we make a lot more by raising (villain bets river after we hit 2pair) or a lot less with your line (ie; an Ace on the river probably kills any value)) every hand you're playing like this. This is a huge leak. This kind of hand happens all the time. And we're ignoring the hands where villain flopped an even worse hand or a hand like a straight draw.




(I realize you've already expressed your disdain for poker math but there's no other way to show so clearly in black and white how badly you're burning money).

But the problem is that for the other it isn't a dumb thing, for him it makes total sense. If you want to convince him you first need to acknowledge that his feeling, how crazy it sounds for you, makes sense in his point of view. Only if you do this, a person which you would call irrational, would maybe listen to what you have to say. Otherwise he would just stay in his own bubble and maybe read your arguments but automatically shut them out.

A fish is never donking stupidly small on the flop and turn then suddenly betting bigger on the river with a hand that one pair beats, but your river call wasn't the worst mistake you made in that hand. I didn't even notice until checking the micro forums (where you only asked about your flop call) that villain in this hand only had like 12 BBs behind on the river, so that makes just calling there even more amusing.

I think we've all got a bit sidetracked on the reason behind posting that AQ hand. It wasn't meant to be an example of how we should play AQ multiway or anything like that.

It was meant to be an example of how 888 likes to screw you over on the river, after giving you just enough rope to hang yourself.

There's no way I'm calling a half pot bet on the river if a queen or an ace didn't show up. However, because the queen was there, it gave me enough of a hand to call that bet despite villain having something better. Whether you would have bet turn then folded to a river raise, or called turn then called a medium sized river bet, the point is the same - 888, by their card distribution, has allowed you to put money in a pot that you perfectly reasonably believe yourself to be ahead in, except it screws you over on the river in a disguised way (as 2 pair hands are largely invisible, especially the 1 gapped hands like villain had). And so the hand is more of an example of how 888 facilitates the transfer of money from one player (the one who has hit his winnings limit) to another (the one who has not yet hit his winnings limit, or is a losing player that month).

There's loads of hands exactly like this one, where I was ahead on the flop or on the turn, but beaten on the river. I don't know if there's a way to filter hands in PokerTracker for 'ahead on turn, behind on river', but if there is I'm sure it'd make very interesting reading. If 888 is throwing straight dice, I should suck out on the river as often as I'm sucked out on, but I guarantee that's not happening. I actually remember the individual hands where it did happen as they are so rare, yet the times it's been done to me all blurs together because it happens literally every session at some point.

AlienSpaceBat and CMAR - I understand what you guys are saying about how I'm still not great at poker and will have plenty of leaks. But you've surely got to compare yourself to the other players at the table? (i.e. if you've got one player in the bottom 20% of 'poker ability', and 8 players in the bottom 10% of poker ability, sitting at that table is still +EV for the 20% guy, even though he's still not very good.

Likewise, when I sit down at a 6max 4nl game, it's extremely easy to find a table with two 40% VPIP's, and even most of the players with more reasonable VPIP have a large gap between that and their PFR (i.e. 20/8, 14/4, those kind of numbers). I don't think it'd be crazy to suggest I'm in the top half of any of the players at most 4nl tables simply because there's normally 2 or 3 big fish on a 6 handed table. Sometimes there's more. There's rarely less and if there is you can just find another table.

So what I'm saying is, sitting down at that table should be +EV for me. And my all in EV line shows it is +EV (12bb/100 all in ev winnings, but a 2bb/100 'real' winrate). But yet I'm treading water at 4nl because as soon as I get above $100, 888 will put a hand out there that gets me to put money in with a decent hand, but given the villain a better one. Or there'll be some crazy river suckout like the AK hand where I actually had my whole stack in as an 84% favorite then lose to a flush. Over the last 2 sessions, all in EV suggests I should be up 1 buyin. I'm actually down 2.5 buyins. And it always seems to be at the $100 level too.

I know it sounds paranoid but when it happens every single time you reach that limit it makes me pause and think about alternative reasons for it. As you've identified, I don't play every hand perfectly, of course not - but neither do most people at these stakes, and every night I see some guy making absolutely ******ed plays (and not on the level of not betting a street with top pair, ******ed on the level of calling a 3bet with 75o then calling off 3 streets because the flop had a 7 in it despite an ace and a king also appearing) and getting rewarded for it with turn and river cards that make his hand. I hardly ever see those turn and river cards go my way, especially in big pots.

3-4 big blinds pre is often too big a raise size when stacks are as shallow as they often are in tournaments IMO.


EDIT:

Particularly talking about when no one has limped in. But even when someone has limped in, 4 big blinds is often bigger than necessary.

Yeah I question people's advice often so I can understand the thought process behind it. There's nothing wrong with challenging a viewpoint and discussing alternatives. The strategy forums would be pretty boring if everyone always agreed on the best way to play.

This kind of talk is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with calling a bet! You've yet to offer any reason behind raising this flop except 'fold equity'. Why don't we just shove all in then? That'd maximise our fold equity, right?

In general you should cbet flops that hit your perceived range, or that you have a good deal of equity in. This flop fits neither of those categories, plus it's multiway and smacks the range of our preflop limpers.

With 7/1 odds given, I only need like, 14% equity in the hand to make it worth continuing. There's very few hands that the villains could hold that give me less than 14%. And I don't fold to min donk bets out of principle anyway.

No, the only reason you think you're ahead is because you misplayed the hand and aren't very good at hand reading.

In other words, any such "rig" will only work on donks. Which is a pretty terrible rig...


A player of average skill will be a losing player due to the rake. You need to be significantly better than average to beat the rake.

And we're still talking about a trivial break-even stretch.

No, absolutely not.

Your problem is very common among new/bad players, particularly TAGfish and there are two mental breakthroughs you need to make before you can improve:

1) You need to realize you are focused on the wrong problem. Your are not having difficulties because of your coolers. The difference between you and the good players is that the good players win in spite of the bad beats.

2) The problem is with all your other hands. This can be due to many, many different problems which would be impossible to list but the generalize to you're not winning enough when you win hands and/or you're losing too much when you lose hands and/or you're losing hands you should be winning. This can be for any number of reasons - failing to extract value, paying off when you know you're beat are two of the most common. My analysis of your AQ is an example of this. A good player would not be leaving all that money on the table so when he hits a bad beat it wouldn't be such a big deal - He's profitable anyway. However, since you don't have the cushion to fall back on you coolers look crippling.

Stop looking at all-in EV. You're completely misusing it and it's just reinforcing your erroneous thinking.

See this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...ncern-1290963/

And this one:

CoTW: Why all-in-EV is a horrible measure of overall luck

And this:

https://www.pokertracker.com/blog/20...-all-in-equity

When you provide documentation that 888 used a form of mind control to get you to call the turn then you are more on your way to proving your thesis.

Until then it is a simple Haiku:

You play poker bad.

You play poker really bad.

You really play bad.


You are actually the exact type of donk (calling station) that other riggies complain about that the site tries to help.

Your post flop play is hopeless, and the fact you actually think you have skill destroys your ability to ever improve (cue the entrance of your personalized riggie beliefs).

I did try once to give you genuine advice, but by then I had seen your posting history as a human who simply cannot accept and take advice, and once you behaved as expected you then became the perfect example of a donk turned riggie who would in detail explain his poker thinking, and for that I give you thanks.

You have reached the point where it becomes a futile exercise, even for amusement, because breaking down your bad play further will not change your beliefs about yourself being the victim of a conspiracy. You have the unexpected self awareness that you lack the skill to beat games like 50 NL (again, somewhat rare for a riggie), though you are likely not as good a player relatively at 4 NL as you believe as long as you remain a hard core calling station.

Still, if your poker existence is spending many hours being frustrated at penny stakes and believing that world is out to get you for pocket change then go for it if that is what makes you happy. People play for worse reasons, and if the time you spend making basically not much with your flaws still makes you happy then again that is a valid reason to play. If you are trying to pursue this activity as a means to make any significant amount of money then that would be a very bad idea for you at this time with what you have presented to date. Thanks again for the refreshing chat, and try to not degenerate too much into what these other riggies are like as they are pretty boring.

All the best.

P.S. Keep using all-n EV, it is part of the conspiracy.

Beyond speaking the truth and letting those wise enough to benefit to do so, I'm not sure anyone here has some deep burning desire to force riggies to drink from the well of logic.

TBH, I LOVE seeing statements like "nobody wins consistently" or "there's a winning cap" or "Withdrawals are doomswitched." Show them an instance of that not happening, does the theory get revised or dropped? Of course not.

There's a difference between posturing as if you're looking for the truth and actually taking those steps. Riggies never take the steps. They just cry and vomit nonsense.

And this thread is their urinal. Thinking it's more is delusional.

Kind of like the Theory of Poker (if you play the hand differently than you could if you knew the truth of the situation, you lose, regardless of outcome). If riggies act in accordance with something that isn't true, those actions are -EV.

Call it the "Sklansky's Theory of Life." Kind of ironic, don't you think?

It's almost as if the river is in fact part of the game, and there specifically to decide who wins the hand. Crazy! Very simple to filter for (at least in HEM), just do something like "Lost hand = true, equity on turn was greater than 50%". Only if you're getting it in as badly and as often as the "donks" that keep sucking out on you. I guarantee it's happened to you more times than you could possibly remember over the course of 38,000 hands, but because you're biased, you only remember a few big examples and have forgotten the times you sucked out on the river but felt you "deserved" to win the hand (like in the AQ hand, where you felt that 90% equity on the turn meant that you should always win the hand, instead of the reality that you SHOULD lose it 1/10 times). Do yourself a favor and stop looking at your graphs. Stop checking how much you're winning or losing, just focus on making the correct plays. Post hands. Reak as many stickies as possible. Post hands. Take what others tell you into consideration, don't try to focus away from bad decisions and say "But wasn't this decision good!?!" POST HANDS. Reply to hands others have posted, explaining your thinking, so that others can comment on whether or not your thinking is solid.

I told him several times to listen to the folks with way more experience than him, or to check himself using wiki or whatever usefull tools are out there. He deliberately chose to go on with dumb statements because he is delusional and immune against any advice. He thinks he is the smartest egg in the basket.

He prefers talking dumb **** to actually e.g. take a look at what a variance simulator is. Zero chance he looked that up now, he will happily die dumb before admitting any mistake to anyone including himself, and try to ignore the matter. Instead he repeats the same false arguments like a broken longplayer. Countdown to his next "That can't be variance" line while refusing to check if it perhaps can be nonetheless. That is dumb and ignorant behaviour out of the textbook for dumb and ignorant people.

That's why I call him an idiot.

I don't want to convince him or something, he has to do that himself (I politely told him how). After 20 times calmly saying something that could actually help him to improve in some aspects, and getting ignored 20 times, I lost hope.

All I can do at this point is to politely tell him that he is a dumb annoying bitch.

Some of these riggies believed you were the nice shill.

Riggies are great.

HO HO HO!!!



All the best.

I'm a badass mother****er yo!