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Originally Posted by skepticalatbest
Ok. We'll disregard the rest, their only "constructive" opinions are the usual droll "no proof" crap.
WTF, I didn't even comment on "no proof" in the post that you quoted.
I made a few points:
-You falsely claimed that PS used a software RNG - the link that you quoted to support your claim actually said the opposite to what you pretended it said.
-You falsely claimed that PS turns a blind eye to people who believe their shuffle is rigged. I encouraged you to actually test your own claim by emailing them.
-I said that although I'm not perfect, I think I contribute to this discussion in a valuable way. Even many of the other people who believe that online poker is rigged acknowledge I'm reasonable in responding to the claims.
I made a post a few pages earlier in here expressing my frustration about this "discussion" - various people come here, make unfounded claims about bizarre international conspiracy theories, have their theories comprehensively debunked, then never actually admit that they're wrong... instead, they just create another falsehood and spread it like gospel.
The problem is that many (but not all!) of the people who believe that online poker is rigged is that they have no critical thinking skills, and no self-criticism. It's as if when they are proved wrong (or something is proven contrary to their pre-existing prejudice) they just ignore it. I don't know if this is ignorant or willful blindness, but when you think about it, this sort of behaviour is the same sort of behaviour that generates this bizarre self-confidence that there is a massive international conspiracy out to defraud them.
There are fundamentally two "possible" reasons for someone to lose at poker over the long-term:
1) Their opponents are better than they are.
2) There is a massive secret international conspiracy out to defraud them.
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I've been doing a lot of reading this afternoon and played a tourney. The focus was on the ability to control the outcome and still pass RNG audits (RNG audits don't audit the software that process the output of the RNG), Action Flops, positions and odds.
WTF, no.
From the page that we discussed earlier:
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PokerStars provided BMM with the source code for its RNG and shuffle, and software that PokerStars uses to protect the security of random numbers. BMM then subjected the source code and the output of the RNG to rigorous testing, including the Marsaglia Die Hard tests.
and
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Cigital analyzed the source code, entropy sources and documentation for PokerStars' RNG implementation. In addition, a sample RNG output stream provided by PokerStars was subjected to - and passed - FIPS 140-1 testing. Using standard methods for exploiting RNGs and having full access to the source code, Cigital was unable to break the PokerStars RNG. Cigital found that the PokerStars implementation adheres to the current state-of-the-practice in generating random seeding values.
For someone who claims to have done a "lot of reading" you sure haven't done much reading.
Are you ignorant to what the website says, or are you just lying? One or the other
must be true. Which one is it?
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Some very interesting reading here. I read the Cigital report on Pokerstars. I played a tourney.
You obviously didn't read the Cigital report on PS, or you wouldn't have made the claims above.
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First, Cigital didn't audit the play money tables, and it's reasonably sound and repeatedly proven that the action on play money tables vs. real money is two distinctly different things.
Where has this been "repeatedly proven"? I don't think this is true.
I think that you are just another lying liar that lies.
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I think it's safe to disgard the Cigital report for the purposes of play money discussion as I don't play real money.
No, it's not safe to disregard the Cigital report. Why the hell would a company go to the effort of making a RNG, have it audited twice, and then pay for the construction of a second one for play money tables? This just makes no sense.
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Of course Pokerstars doesn't record histories in play money tourneys.
But you can if you want. Save the hand histories to disk and do a review yourself.
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The Action Flop Theory states that pros lose more often than they should to keep the newbs in the game. It supports the theory in my OP, that most seemingly disregarded out of hand, that the action is geared to get them to the money.
WTF, no.
You don't even realise that what you are saying is self-contradictory. This is nut house stuff.
You can't simultaneously claim that there are Action Flops (to increase betting) while claiming that the purpose is to keep bad players in the game longer. "Action flops" increase betting, and increase variance... and the greater the pot size and the bigger the variance, the faster the fish go bust.
You're like someone pointing at a green wall, saying it is black, and in the next breath, you're claiming it is white. Not only are your claims wrong and false, but they're also internally self-contradictory.
You can claim to have action flops (to generate action/rake)
or you can claim that there's a plot to keep fishes in the game longer. You can have one or the other - not both, because one stops the other from happening.
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Coupled with a site's ability to manipulate the draw and still pass the RNG audit... I truly believe there's validity to the concerns.
WTF, but there is not ability to manipulate the draw and pass the RNG audit. That's why RNG audits exist.
I think I pretty reasonably addressed every significant point you made here. I'd be interested if you could respond to each point I made.