You realize that it's possible to obtain a profit while still being cheated, right?

Hey, I haven't read the last page or so, but see there's a lot more typing and words and stuff.

Does that mean someone has provided some evidence to support their claims? Or is it just baseless ranting about some hypothetical international conspiracy?

Of course, but the way some of these people formulate their arguments, that's not what it's about.

There are a few people on here who approach this subject with some rational thinking and open mindedness, and then others who think there are magical poker bots and RNGs that are designed to suck up all their money. It's a wide spectrum.

I just find it funny how when some people lose on a sick hand, that money goes to another player who is a proven loser based on online databases, your own history with them, etc etc. We love to remember the hands they win but don't think twice when they stack off for 300 bb in a half hour session and leave.

I think lately the discussion is about your site employing superuser bots to suck up people's money.

If you could just let us know the screen names of those bots that would help us avoid them at the tables.

probably not.
definitely
the very idea of that hurts my brain.
here's where this quote should go...
lol
we'll let you know when it's more than "patterns" only rigtards can see or the popular consensus on the short bus, I mean the local cardroom.

I'd stick with John Malkovich.

'stiming, innit?

LLLLoooooLLL u shills get more creative it seems
I am also a winning player a VIP on my site.
I am still entitiled to my opinion. about other sites right?

yeah, would make perfect sense to forbid datamining and then hand out billions of handhistories to any customer who wants to carry out said analization (scnr).

You still shilling for RealDeal?

Your site?

You mean the one that exists only in your imagination.

The only place in the entire universe where you can be a winner.

Yup, and we're still entitled to ignore it as the ravings of big time loser.

Have a nice day.

What happens when someone playing at "your site" whatever site that is has a bad beat and whines in the chat that it is rigged? Do you think they are wrong? If so, does that make you a shill?

Every site has paranoid people who think it is rigged against them, I am sure "your site" is no different. Likely just a matter of time before you start noticing special patterns as well at "your site."

Still, the concept of a riggedologist being a "shill" is kind of quaint. What would the other riggedologists think? Why not post the details about "your site" and let's see if all the riggedologists agree with you that it is a perfectly legit site.

Ughhh, my head is spinning. I had someone at Pstars send me the link to my hand history from that site. It looks like more than 60k of hands. I started saving the new hand history data to my hard drive. Here is a little sample of what I keep running in to while playing at Pstars. I have dropped way down into the micro limits so that I can afford to play and take beats like these as I am collecting data...No wonder why the Riggedologists give up on their research, this is not going to be easy for someone who is new to examining this amount of data...

PokerStars Game #31569558997: Tournament #186819466, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2009/08/13 0:32:57 ET
Table '186819466 2' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: calinam (20430 in chips)
Seat 2: Aggsliota (5510 in chips)
Seat 3: Newising (3510 in chips)
Seat 4: JDtheDean (8450 in chips)
Seat 5: billstone420 (10360 in chips)
Seat 6: celtic jim (5405 in chips)
Seat 7: AAintheblind (5550 in chips)
Seat 8: UhOh_It'sJoe (5115 in chips)
Seat 9: KINGS1001 (3170 in chips)
calinam: posts the ante 25
Aggsliota: posts the ante 25
Newising: posts the ante 25
JDtheDean: posts the ante 25
billstone420: posts the ante 25
celtic jim: posts the ante 25
AAintheblind: posts the ante 25
UhOh_It'sJoe: posts the ante 25
KINGS1001: posts the ante 25
UhOh_It'sJoe: posts small blind 200
KINGS1001: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UhOh_It'sJoe [Ks Kh]
calinam: raises 800 to 1200
Aggsliota: folds
Newising: folds
JDtheDean: folds
billstone420: folds
celtic jim: folds
AAintheblind: folds
UhOh_It'sJoe: raises 3890 to 5090 and is all-in
KINGS1001: folds
calinam: calls 3890
*** FLOP *** [Js Ah 5d]
*** TURN *** [Js Ah 5d] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [Js Ah 5d 7c] [9s]
UhOh_It'sJoe said, "lol"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
UhOh_It'sJoe: shows [Ks Kh] (a pair of Kings)
calinam: shows [7d Ad] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
calinam collected 10805 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10805 | Rake 0
Board [Js Ah 5d 7c 9s]
Seat 1: calinam showed [7d Ad] and won (10805) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 2: Aggsliota folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Newising folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: JDtheDean folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: billstone420 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: celtic jim folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: AAintheblind (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: UhOh_It'sJoe (small blind) showed [Ks Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: KINGS1001 (big blind) folded before Flop

It's great that you are actually analyzing your hands. However, don't do it on a hand by hand basis, but on an aggregate. For example there is nothing shocking about this hand:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,712,304 games 0.047 secs 36,432,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.413% 67.24% 00.17% 1151386 2933.00 { KhKs }
Hand 1: 32.587% 32.42% 00.17% 555052 2933.00 { Ad7d }


---

The only thing that hand history tells me is your competition is weak. To even think that the games might be rigged as a result of seeing this completely standard hand is ridiculous.

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=&d=&h=Ad+7d%0D%0AKs+Kh

Losing this hand is about as likely as Ichiro getting a hit in one of his at bats.

Please get out of the habit of looking at hands like this as significant. If you play often enough it's going to happen to you every single day, multiple times per day. If you get all in in a tournament as this big a favorite three times before you reach the money part of the tournament, odds are you will be eliminated. That's not to say you shouldn't be getting it in, but those are the breaks sometimes. Now, if you could show me that you got all in 1000 times as a 2 to 1 favorite and only won a third of them, we'd be on to something.

Also, your biggest disadvantage is probably playing a game that has a 20% rake. Maybe the low level of play in the $1 sng is enough to make up for the doubled % rake, I have no idea.

This sounds like a pretty good idea to me. You might want to do this at the micro stakes level because the site is going to grind a fee. After thousands of hands, it is going to add up. But...this might be a good investment if it answers your questions because playing and thinking that a site might be rigged sure effects your game. It is like playing with scared money, it just doesnt work...

No, not shocking, just annoying that it keeps happening over and over at the worst possible times to either bust me or cripple me. I am not claiming this is proof, but I am looking for help to make the hand analysis easier to deal with. So can I load my data into pokerstove? It is looking like I can only get it from the site in plain text form.

I dropped way down so that I could afford to log a significant amount of hand histories. I am not so concerned about my ROI at this point, I want to see if I am getting a fair shake on this site because my original feeling playing higher up was that something was wrong with how the cards were falling against me.

I agree with you, AA, KK, QQ, they are just hands. I try to avoid pre flop all in situations and work from flops, but it all depends upon the who I am up against and a lot of other factors. Bottom line is that there are times when it is smarter to just fold these hands even if you are way ahead pre flop. If you look at my history on this site, you can see that I have won some tournaments and had some decent cashes, but I obviously still have some holes in my game and I also want to see if one of my leaks is the pokersite itself.

I would love to see this study. I am hoping Spadebidder will also post those results. Thanks for any info like this!

I did notice that pstars has a 25 cent 90 player game with no fee. I should probably load as many of these up at once as I can. This would give me more hand histories for my dollar. LOL!

I am not worried about the level of play right now, I just want to see scenario's like all in with the best hand while on the short stack, situations like those.

LLLLLLLLLLLooooooooooLLLLLLLL
Im not hard to find at 5/10...But my intelect forbides me to engage with mindless fools who play on unregulated sites and trust them with money no matter how big or small That have cheated customers one way or another in the past and STILL continue to operate.
Good day sir.
PS love the zoo always GTD a jolly laugh

No, pokerstove (which is free) just lets you plug in hands and see results. I suggest you download becuase it will help your game to play around with it. You can put in hand ranges to find out your equity for any given hand.

For better analysis without a statistics degree, you'll need a tracking program like pokertracker or HEM, both have free trials. There are free trackers out there that you can find from google.

Obviously for the more advanced analysis you need some expertise in spreadsheets, statistical analysis like Spacebidder and QPW have. They have posted in this thread some basic guidelines on what to look for.

I would like to know which site you are on so that I could try it out. I am guessing that US players are not allowed on it though...Maybe I will just move to your country and play there though...LOL!

Thanks Arouet! Does Poker Tracker allow you to import data by hand? I might be able to get some of my friends to help me type this stuff in from the data I received from Pstars. Pretty cumbersome, but we could probably knock out a 1000 hands a piece and run that info for a look see. I could probably work on this while I am playing and logging more hands with that program.

You should be able to import the file the pokersite sent you without any problems.

Donko, I swear I mean this in the most constructive way possible...

If you spend the time and energy improving your game that it seems you intend to use checking out some figures to determine whether or not the sites are fair, I promise your results will improve. I strongly suggest you try that first.