eff selective memory.

Hi guys,
of course I cannot provide statistical evidence which proves a rigged dealing of cards so I will try a different way. I am pretty sure that Everleaf Gaming is stealing the money of its customers in some way. Everleaf has 71 skins and due to Pokersitescout about 120 cash-players on average. So every site of Everleaf has less than two players on average at a time. I played at Cellsino Poker in march 2009 when they had a kind of rake race so I was able to see how much the top 20 players raked. I was on Top with about 1500$ rake and all other players together had about the same amount. That means they raked a little more than 3000$ in 31 days. They pay rakeback between 40 and 50 % so their total earnings are about 1650 $ a month. They have pretty huge overlays in guaranteed tourneys which have to be paid and they have to pay taxes they have to run their servers and they have to pay employees. How can they be in business for years if they just earn a few bucks every month? I am sure there is something going on. When I started playing there I turned 100$ to 3000$ within a week playing 1 or two 0.50/1 tables. I had been so lucky it was really embarassing. Not to mention that at some point I was not able to win any hand no matter how big a favourite I was.

Very well said.

This is the key in discussing the necessity of full system audit. The audit ensures that the source code of ALL software module is controlled by teh authority and ALL deployed software module is veryfied and signed. As I pointed out before and many times, having a full system would be absolute requirement, the role of the full system audit is to ensure that the randomly generated data is not altered by malicious software modules and indeed the random deals delivered to legitimate users.

PS and FT have never published their full system audit. In fact they have never published a partial audit report. They published nothing and have been operating for long years without revealing this absolute basic information.

Chance of you being the sperm that makes it to the egg 600,000,000-1.

And yet here you are, along with 6 billion others.

Very good question and the answer is: nobody knows.

The multibillion PS enterprise that claims integrity and takes users’ money has not published any substantial information about system audit, there is no information on how exactly the gaming authority controls their London and foreign based operation that are not in the jurisdiction of the authority, it is a mystery to any sane software professional how the tiny Isle of Man authority controls the frequent and almost weekly based software updates that take place on a complex system that includes business continuity servers.

PS must have a very good reason to hide this information and do some kind of software audit (which then never published) once in every five years.

Chance that you understand even basic poker odds - 10,000,000:1

I have researched all the marketing for the last 2 years for Stars. Including: Bluff, Cardplayer, Casino and online links. Nowhere do they claim the games are fair. So why would jagne have to prove they are legit? You say the site claims the games are fair? Where do you see that?

Question: If this idea that Stars could implement a rigged RNG that still somehow fell within the parameters that wouldn't set off zomg rigged flags, wouldn't the changes have to be made in an update? Wouldn't it be obvious?

Also, how exactly are they rigging it? Who are they trying to favor? What are they trying to accomplish? All serious questions.

Let's totally pretend that is true for Pokerstars.

And Full tilt.

And Absolute Poker

And Party Poker

And Will Hill Poker

And Cake Poker

And Interpoker

And Everest Poker

And...


Get my point yet? If all of these rooms have 2-4 secret agents guarding the super secret, that means that hundreds or thousands over all of the rooms are keeping this secret quiet.

And what about the rooms that shut down? What about their managers who are now out of work that know this super black ops level secret? It's not 2 or 3 magically controlling this mystical software. It's hundreds over all of the rooms.

Or are you saying that only some of the rooms are rigged. If so which? Why would some be rigged while others are not?


Look at all of that fancy language packed so tightly in a robust paragraph.

Now you need to explain how hundreds of rooms are pulling this off at the same time, inccluding defunct rooms. It's not just about Pokerstars.


Or be a groundbreaker and be the first riggedologist that actually proves something instead of just theorizing.


Remember, every theory you create out of thin air has to be done by many, many, MANY poker rooms all without being caught or revealed in any way. It is not simply "look at Madoff." It is "look at the 500-1000 Madoffs that no one caught yet."

When you get tired of trying to fit that model, or if you choose to ignore that harsh reality as most riggedologists do, perhaps you can spend some time working on some thought experiments that deal with actual real problems in the industry.


P.S. You never did show the hands you said proved your theories. You know - the " billions to one identical ones" that were completely different in nature. Wonder why...


Know a good way to get answers to these deep questions? You can... wait for it.... drumroll...

Email support@pokerstars.com

or email any of the other sites (I assume you think they are magically rigged as well).

It is so strange that you continue to avoid doing this very simple task that will answer many of these riddles that seem to vex you. It's like you keep deeply pondering what time it is but refuse to just look at a clock.


Most people who say it is rigged do so because they think it is rigged against them. Issues you mention do not really matter to someone with those beliefs since if the world is out to get them everything else is possible to make that happen. Paranoid thinking aint pretty, but it also is fairly simple.

And yes, all of it would be obvious if it happened, and if any riggedologist had any real proof they would be posting non stop with it.


They are rigging it against riggedologists who tend to be losing players. Since it is rigged against them , it is no longer their fault that they lose as it is due to powers beyond their control. If you ask questions based on logic or a simple "why?" you will generally get Madoff/businesses cheat customers style responses.

Reality is much harsher, as the worst thing that can happen to a truly paranoid person is eventually realizing that no one actually cares what happens to them. Having multi billion dollar companies "target" them shows how important they are.

Asking how they are rigging it can lead to some really fun answers including ones that often times completely contradict themselves, but the how is not that important in the end to the paranopid personality, the key is that they are important enough to be selected as a target.

A data manipulation layer between the RNG and dealing already exists, on Poker Stars at least. In the 2-7 triple draw games on Stars once you discard a card, if on a later street the RNG would deal that card to you, you are instead dealt another card resulting in an increased probability of better hands being made. This is not some rigged theory or whatever - Stars has admitted to this, although their support will still deny it unless you state explicitly what they're doing or provide links to the thread here where they admit to it. See this thread for more details: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-2-7td-309392/ This deal manipulation is also still not mentioned on their website.

And I don't think anybody is naive enough to say rigging is impossible or even terribly difficult so a proof of concept is not really meaningful. And the worst part is, if a site were ever rigged it would be incredibly difficult to ever prove. Even something as naive as all-in equity manipulation, which is ostensibly the easiest to 'catch' rigging, is actually quite difficult to prove. Imagine the classic case of fish run hot at regs expense. Shave 1% of all regs equity over to fish - and rebalance the equity inequities (har har) between regs. That's almost certainly hundreds of millions of dollars, if not billions. What statistical artifacts would there be? The only one substantial would be some fish, none of whom will individually have a meaningful sample size, running above expectation. Some regs would still be running above, some below. And this is something you would have to prove this to your average low education level poker grinder. 1%? It's just variance baby.

And in the end, what does it matter? You can still make money at poker. It's actually even remotely possible that if the sites were rigged that would end up being +EV for everybody. After all, a fish who runs hot is more likely to stick around than one who doesn't and that's good for everybody. And if somebody did prove a site was rigged, what would change? Besides getting a laugh at the staunch defenders' expenses, everything would go on as it was the day before. People still play at Absolute/UB/Cereus, even 2+2ers!

It's all just mental masturbation.

Question to you. Do you think the base level support at Stars "denies" it because it is a massive cover up, or do you think it is possible that base level of support may not be familiar with an obscure situation in a relatively obscure game?

The huge chat of it at the time never implied any rigging was involved, it was basically that the way Stars did it was a bit different then the game is normally dealt (albeit in a almost never happens situation). Most including myself agreed it would have been smarter if Stars made this change known publicly even if no one cared, just to avoid any conspiracy beliefs from forming. I think a pro that helped them implement the game even explained that they suggested at the time they make this change. It was boringly routine, not anything dark and sinister.



Sure they could probably program it so a player gets AA every hand. That would risk their entire business if caught.

Not at all. Someone would have told by now with proof if it happened among the hundreds of sites. Or someone would have proven it through database analysis.


Not at all. Someone would have told by now with proof if it happened among the hundreds of sites. Or someone would have proven it through database analysis.

The biggest one possible. Someone inside who knows and can show how it is done. Among the hundreds of sites someone would have told by now if this happened.


Someone would have told by now with proof if it happened among the hundreds of sites. Or someone would have proven it through database analysis.


If someone legitimately proved a site was rigged it would change everything. No one has yet, which is why all we get are routine paranoid conspiracies that require thousands of regular humans in hundreds of poker rooms to all keep a dark secret their entire lives.

Even after they leave their jobs or their rooms collapse.

Wow, these guys are special people to be doing that.

Well, since I strongly believe PS operation is dishonest, fraudulent and they simply misleads players about the integrity of their operation by making the marketing cloud about the Cigital report on the RNG and in the meantime have been hiding the only relevant full system audits from the public (which obviously not exists that’s why they aren't revealing) I call them criminals. I call Madoff and the Enron fraudsters criminal as well. Until PS is not providing credible evidence about the existence of full system audit reports that covers all aspects of their operation, they are just money collector fraudsters hiding behind the tiny Isle of Man gaming authority wihout proving their honesty and they are not in the league of legitimate and honest businesses.

I can’t wait UK law enforcement listen to consumer protection groups and finally initiate a criminal investigation against PS in the UK which will force them to submit their full source code and will reveal the nature of their operation, and then we will see who was correct about PS. Knowing gambling industry traditionally and by nature attracts criminals like magnet and understanding what is common in Madoff and people who set up PS I am not to worry about the libel you referring to.

I was not aware that this site is for professional poker players only. I found this thread that discusses rigged online poker and I was under the impression that not all posters are professional poker players here - in fact your ranting buddy qpw is not a poker player at all, as it became clear he is not playing the game at all just shilling here.

I don’t associate with anybody apart from
1) morally supporting UK based consumer groups which hopefully will be able to initiate a criminal investigation against PS behalf of pissed of players
2) being involved by providing some coding with an open source software project that purpose is to deliver 100% transparent poker game in which the RNG and all software source code including the database is available for public review and obviously is not rigged.

That’s all my association with the gambling industry.


Yes, 5-6 regular site defender crusaders like yourself have been posting their opinion here and some of you ranting about rigtards/******s, paranoia and personally attack users who dare to wonder about the integrity of the game. In other hand, there are 2-300 users entered to this thread being concerned about the integrity of the game. All of them very understandable worry about the integrity of the game. Many of them presented very valid and rational arguments and opinions about why system audit is a must for gambling operators, the criminal connections of online gambling industry, the criminal mindset of gambling operators that by definition is one of the driving forces in the industry, unregulated manner of the online gambling industry which is obviously a disgrace, etc.

Depends on which software module is updated. I came cross in my software engineering career with software module that has not been updated for 20 years. In certain financial, telecommunication and energy industry entities the attitude is: don’t change which is not broken, and I can imagine the attitude at PS is the same. PS has a high transaction volume system that the core modules probably not so frequently updated.

Well, I think you are quite right and what you've just said does make lot of sense. There is certainly millions and millions of dollars possible extra profit in implementing some kind of trick, for example what you have described. Let see what the site defenders will say about your theory.

I think, if it would be proven that the sites rigged it would change the whole game terms of positive way: the fraudsters would go to jail and honest site operators would take over the businesses which would result in increased consumer confidence and more players. More players then would generate more profit for winning players.

No it is not. You know nothing about software engineering that’s why you are speculating on the issue and making incorrect assumptions.

As I said earlier in my previous post, maximum 2-3 senior level software/system engineers would need to be involved to handle the rigged code segments and its deployments and certainly not thousand of peoples as you have assumed.

No I don't get your point. Why do you assume that ALL poker sites are rigged and there is no honest operation at all? I assume PS and FT are rigged, but it obviously does not mean that all sites are rigged, and I am sure there are a lot of honest online poker rooms. So we are not talking about thousands of people just 1-2 at PS.

Are you paranoid that making up that massive thousand people conspiracy theories and overcomplicating simple things?

First off, that's not "my theory." That was the most primitive but reasonable idea I could conceive. I'd expect that if a site did decide to rig their deal, they'd put more than 5 minutes thought into how to do it. The point was how extremely difficult this can be to detect, even for such a naive method of rigging.

In any case, nobody would ever end up in jail over 'rigging'. It's not illegal. Russ Hamilton is not in jail and he directly stole from players. Regardless, I think for what is effectively a completely unregulated environment, we're doing okay. There's no doubt that our money is safe and you can still make a living at the game. If you want more accountability then simply wait a year. US regulation seems imminent.

So at that rate they would only have rigged 11 hands so far in the history of online poker, at all sites combined. Obviously not detectable.

What leads you to think FTP and PS are rigged while all other sites are legit?

To paraphrase Roberts: I contend that we are both non-rigtards. I just believe in two more fair sites than you do. When you understand why you consider all the other sites are fair, you will understand why I think they all are.

Yeah, US regulation's worked out pretty well in other industries.

It wouldn't work because there is no meaningless spot. The cards don't care about poker rules and what makes a hand, they just fall randomly, creating a testable normal distribution. It would also have to be a very very sophisticated algorithm to even determine what makes a "meaningless" spot as far as not affecting the game play (it still affects the deal distribution).

Well, whether you think it makes a difference or not is another question, but every jurisdiction that licenses the sites makes it illegal. In PS case, the Isle of Mann would pull their license and possibly prosecute someone. Some other jurisdictions have less real clout or motivation to enforce the rules, but they all have laws stipulating a fair game.

I know human nature and I knnow what a poker site shrill is.
There are any number of ways staff can cheat most people will if they know they won't get caught. You are an absolute fool if you believe cheating is not going on. The temptation increases during hard time.
The golden rule is if you are suspicious quit playing, it will cost you nothing, you mighr even 'get a life' so to speak

Not a one of the figures you mention are close to reality. Your 17:1 which should say 16:1 was the least far off. When did sets change from 7.5:1 to 50:1? You are talking about poker right?

What I meant was if they made any type of change in the RNG, we would've seen the change, as every update has to be downloaded when the client is opened.

Whenever something new is added to Stars, threads pop up, "what was the new update for?" Each time, 2+2ers figure it out. Don't you think a shift in the RNG would be obvious at any point?

And to all: since Isle of Man or whateverthefk laws are the ones Stars operates by, has anyone tried to contact the appropriate bodies of governance? Surely at this point somebody over in Europe or the Isle of Man itself has sought legal recourse to remedy harm done to them...

Other sites in other places? What about SpadeClub, isn't that based in America?

You know what a shrill is yet you still can't spell it? LOL

By the way the "shut up" response earlier was a perfect reply to your bad beat whiny post. That's about all it deserved. I mean at least come up with something creative so there are actually holes to poke in the logic. You mean you had a set vs. a straight? WOW, never thought that could happen. It's rigged I guess.