Hi guys, posting to see if anyone can clarify for me... I didn't start playing cash regularly until this year, so I evidently don't know what is and isn't acceptable for cash game table selection. Wondering if there is anyone who has been in the "online cash world" long enough to provide any insight or advice. (I play on one of the stars USA sites fwiw)

I received the following message in an email from Stars and a similar message that popped up on top of my tables in a session earlier this week.

"Hello,

Following a review into your account, we have concluded that you frequently reserve seats for our games without playing any hands.

It is reasonable that on occasion you may change your mind about playing and cancel your reservation. However, we expect that when you reserve seats you intend on playing and do not cancel based on who else is at the table. This applies equally to buying in without the intention of playing, either immediately or upon being in the blinds.

This behavior is detrimental to the experience of other players.

We request that you actively refrain from this behavior. This expectation is explained here:

https://www.pokerstars.com/help/arti...warning/10934/

"Players are expected to be seated and reserve seats with the purpose of playing. [...]

At tables with more than two seats:
• It is acceptable to be seated but occasionally deny action in certain circumstances, such as being seated to help start a new cash game but not wanting to play heads-up.
• It is not acceptable to remain sitting out at a table (especially an active one) waiting for one of only a few preferred opponents to arrive.

In general, seated players are expected to accept action much more often than they refuse it."

If we become aware that this practice is continuing, we will be forced to suspend you from playing on our site. It is also possible that you will be barred from playing completely if you do not take our warnings seriously, although we sincerely hope it does not come to that.

These rules ensure the games remain enjoyable and accessible for all players. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and understanding.

Regards,
PokerStars Game Integrity Team"


The link included basically says this (although this rule is not posted anywhere that I'm aware of like in the 'rules' or 'prohibited software' sections of their website; had to be given this link to become aware of this/these rule/s):

"Players are expected to be seated and reserve seats with the purpose of playing. There is a limit of two seating attempts per table without playing during any six-hour period.

At tables with more than two seats:

It is acceptable to be seated but occasionally deny action in certain circumstances, such as being seated to help start a new cash game but not wanting to play heads-up.
It is not acceptable to remain sitting out at a table (especially an active one) waiting for one of only a few preferred opponents to arrive.
In general, seated players are expected to accept action much more often than they refuse it."



So, this is pretty clear, but where I'm confused is, at what point can one decide they no longer like X or Y table and be permitted to leave the table and play a different one?

Seems like the message in the email means "active table/game selection is 'detrimental to the experience of other players'" so Stars wants players to completely ignore any/all aspects of game/table selection and just "sit wherever", or they'll ban you. But clearly this can't be the case because the cash lobby would be anonymous or all zoom or something.

So, again, I'm pretty unclear about when one can leave a table in general/at all without consequence. Also, if we add ourselves to a wait list; take the seat, then decide we don't like the table, how long do we have to play there before it's OK to leave? Are we allowed to return to this table in the future?

Or... are we really expected to just totally disregard game selection and pretend it's not a thing? Is this what ROW players are doing (kinda doubt it, but I really don't know)?

I did, of course, reply to their email, days ago, but haven't heard back and don't exactly expect a timely and detailed response with an answer to everything I asked, so I'm just hoping to get some clarification here so I can follow the rules and avoid any problems.

Thanks in advance.

GGpoker does something similar.

They are trying to avoid players waiting for a seat at a table with a fish and then deciding not to play at that table if the fish leaves or playing for a bit and then leaving once the fish leaves.

Basically you are allowed to game select but if more often than not you decide to not play at a particular table because you see that the dynamic has changed they will flag you.

It is a pretty grey area that lots of players are getting unjustly flagged for.

As you stated, if they truly wanted to avoid this type of situation they would make all the table anonymous until you sat down at them. Pretty easy fix.

I would say that in your particular case you need to just focus on playing at a table if you reserve a seat at it, regardless of whether or not the table ends up being soft or not. If you do that more than you leave a table they will likely leave you alone.

There is no set rule for how long you can sit and not be flagged. Thats up to the poker site.

Thanks for this; makes sense. However, there was a post that was here but must have been deleted, that said something like, "what are you talking about? email says nothing about leaving a table; just don't sit out when the fish busts (and may rebuy) to see if they're coming back etc."...something like this...

Well, what am I talking about? I did mention that I'm new to the world of cash games and table selection rules etc. as of this year; also as I mentioned, this rule was not available anywhere to be known until I broke it, so it's not like everyone knows every little rule.

That post also did shine some light on why I'm so confused. Sitting out when a fish busts or leaving the game immediately when a fish leaves was never something I did, ever. Never; at least not right away like many others do. Games break all the time and rarely, if ever, would I be the first to leave... So that wasn't the issue, but it made me wonder when it is OK to leave. Just seems like such a grey area where since these rules are essentially unwritten, they can just say you did something wrong and ban you... Again, I'm pretty new to cash so... guess this is how it is...

Just like a live room; you can change a couple of times, but you cannot hop from table to table above some sort of threshold.

100% on the mark with the unwritten rules.

In the world of fairly regulated but still highly unregulated online poker, the grey areas will always be a potential spot for abuse by the poker site.

GGpoker is getting press for banning players and saying they don't want predatory behaviour and a strong eco system but then allowing super small buyins at tables, still allowing table selection, mass multi tabling etc. All the things that contribute to the eco system they don't want they still allow but you leave a table too early in their mind or sign up under a couple skins on the network and you get flagged or worse banned.

Hopefully with some of the negative press GG got they will fix up the system and perhaps other sites will follow suit.

Just don't allow people to sit out. That fixes half the problem anyway.

Removes some of the user friendly aspect of the game.

I have two young children and I have to sit out for legit reasons to quickly attend to one of them in the evenings. I accept the fact that if I'm not back in 6-7 minutes I will lose my seat but it would be very frustrating to have to close every table just because I have to step away for a minute.

Children aside people still need to go to the bathroom or fill up a water cup. I don't think you can remove the sit out feature.

If the game is full, you still have a decent amount of time. More for 9 max then 6 max. If the game isn't full, it shouldn't matter if you lose your seat because you can just rejoin the game. Pokerbros just continues to deal you in and will post your blinds once. The next time your blinds come around it picks you up. So if you leave on your button, you have about 2 full rounds to get back. A small price to pay to eliminate the whole sitting out shitshow.

Is it OK to start tables and leave if the table develops unfavorably?

Or...? I truly don't understand the situation (back to when/under what conditions can we leave a table?). Seems like, as per the warning, I am expected to just "be here to play some poker!" (and be completely passive about game dynamics and totally ignore whether or not a table is +EV enough for me), while many others (regs/non regs) are clearly moving tables frequently and obviously game selecting actively.

I play on a usa facing PS site and heard regs talking about this in chat. I'm a pretty aggressive game selector too and I've yet to been issued this warning. I'm wondering what triggered yours and if it's just a matter of time for me.

I find it fairly obnoxious ps is trying to enforce this because legally I think they're not allowed to force you to wager. That said, they likely have some jurisdiction as private businesses to ban you for whatever they want.

Also games pretty regularly break once the recs bust and leave, it seems this is fine?

I suppose the fix as a player for this is to not get deep on a wait list when the game could have a much different composition when your seat is up. Don't sit out when recs sit out. I'm pretty pissed I have to think of new ways to minimize my rake paid, within the limitations of subjective enforcement

@OP, If you don't mind sharing: how many tables do you play on average? What is your average stake? What is your monthly volume? How many waitlists do you typically use?

I'm on 9 average, NL100-1k, 100k hands+, many waitlists at once and say no to many seats (without joining the table!).

I intend to be much more careful about waitlists now, so thank you for posting

The games breaking regularly thing (and others obviously using similar table selection strategy to what I was flagged for) is why I feel I'm being treated very unfairly. Also quite curious what the trigger for me was, because you're quite right, games break all the time as soon as a fish busts and leaves and as I said I rarely/never would be the first to leave.

I've basically stopped using the WL so I don't accidentally break this "two declines on same table in six hour" rule (which is why I was curious about starting tables); obviously been very inconvenient.

I think I average something like 5 or 6 tables; never more than 8. Mainly 50-100nl; prob something like 25-30k hands/mo.

Not really sure how to say how many WL used... lots/just as much as other regs until I had a comfortable number of tables, then less.