what does this mean? Is this the liquidator? Who is this, how do we report. Why to this person/address? Can you find out more info?

Assuming that is his current place of residence, if Jo Remme doesn't have a bodyguard yet, now would probably be a good time to hire one - or more. Otherwise, whoever lives there had better have really good security...

DISCLAIMER: THIS POST IS NOT INTENDED TO GIVE LEGAL ADVICE AND DOES NOT CREATE AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT RELATIONSHIP. CONSULT AN ATTORNEY IN YOUR JURISDICTION IF YOU SEEK LEGAL ADVICE. THIS POST IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.



There is a lot of decent information itt and there is also a lot of speculation. Be very cautious when dealing with random posters who claim to have significant knowledge "from the inside." Always consider that there are many angles involved here and many people/entities with large monetary interests. Be sure to consider the incentive for people to postcertain information and make attempts to verify the info. Not trying to sound like a preacher, but there are lot of young, innocent, and somewhat naive people on 2+2 who have a tendency to give a lot of credence to unverifable information.



I've said this before, and I think it is important to emphasize again: There needs to be an attempt to obtain U.S. Jurisdiction. The regulations and laws that "govern" these sites in these tiny countries have no teeth and the economies of many of these countries rely on online gaming to sustain itself. Thus, the governments simply will not interfere because it is not in thier best interest to do so. I understand the argument that the country can receive long-term benefits from providing a regulated market, but (1) they likely don't realize that or (2) are two persuaded by the size of the immediate financial gain or (3) are bribed by the sites. Online gambling is legal in just about every country; it's not a random coincidence that every site is headquartered and regulated in countries like costa rica.



Obtaining U.S. Jurisdiction is actually much more feasible than anyone on this site wants to believe. Yes, the sites are licensed offshore and the terms and conditions dictate that jurisdiciton is offshore, but there is a way to get through this. The "U.S. Sites" obviously market themselves towards U.S. customers (Eurolinx had a damn U.S. flag on its site). An intent to enter the U.S. market (probably only a reasonable likelihood to enter the U.S. market) can be enough to obtain jurisdiction. Think of it this way: if a Costa Rican shoe company sold a ****load of bunk shoes to a buyer in the U.S., the buyer can obtain U.S. jurisdiction over the Costa Rican company because of the intent to enter the U.S. market. It's the same for a online gambling site that enters the U.S. market.



There are also many exceptions to the terms and conditions, such as whether there was an intent to commit fraud or whether the site knew that U.S. citizens would have no adequate recourse. Remember, from a judicial perspective, the U.S. Courts want to protect U.S. citizens from offshore companies that enter the U.S. markets to commit fraud against U.S. citizens.



I should note that I have no specialty in international law or internet law and am speaking from my general knowledge of conflicts of laws between countries.



Also, a lot of people are saying that "the money is gone simce Jo Remme obv is hiding the money." This almost certainly is true, and is another reason to get U.S. Jurisdiction. Under U.S. law (both federal bankruptcy law and many state statutes), you can't transfer money out of company with an intend to defraud creditors. If you can establishes that Eurolinx did this (which I'm guessing would be very easy), the Court can "avoid" those transfers and have that money returned to Eurolinx to pay its debts (to you guys). I think the federal statute is 11 U.S.C. 544.



There's a lot of work that needs to be done, and like I said I just wrote this off the top of my head. My suggestion is to find a lawyer to do some initial research on these issues (or who is an expert in this area...I certainly am not) to better guide you on your decisions. There is a lot of money involved here, but it's generally not worth it for one person to go through all these hurdles to get back 5K. The legal issues are universal to every single one of you, which is why you guys should organize and pool your resources because a lot of the work will overlap amongst all of you, in which case it is certainly worthwhile to pursue this.



Excuse any types as I wrote this very fast. Also, I should note that I had no money on Eurolinx so I have no financial interest in this. I just find this scenario so gross.

EDIT: Also regarding the U.S. Jurisdiction, there is a case entitled Zippo Manufacturing Co. v. Zippo Dot Com, 952 F. Supp. 1119, which provided the general rule that applies to jurisdicition over websites. There, the Court held that websites with no user activity and whose purpose is to provide information will not be sufficient to obtain jursidcition; however websites that are interactive and that conduct business (financial transactions) with foreign residents will establish jurisdcition. Eurolinx would obviously fall in the latter category.

I had something very similar happen, receiving an "Oh yes, your order went through with no problems! You should receive it shortly."

I replied with: "But wait, one item is an E-Book, surely it doesn't take 3 weeks to email a password or link for an E-book."

Then I received no reply. Then 10 days later I got an email from Jackie saying the store was going through renovations and the orders were canceled/points returned.

I also got an email from her in late July about an unrelated matter, and she mentioned in the email that all payment issued had been resolved and will be processed smoothly again going forward. I replied "Great, when can I expect the $4K cashout I requested 8 weeks ago?" She never replied to that email, or a subsequent one.

I don't think this is the same thing. The first "Eurolinx" is definitely a different company, no clue if it has anything to do with online poker or gambling.

This line was cut out from the above cut and paste, but appears on this page.

http://w2.brreg.no/kunngjoring/hent_...erdi=888186492

"Notification of any claims/objections must be sent to the business enterprise by the chairman of the liquidation committee within two months counting from 18.11.2008. "

That's November 18th of 2008...


The BetOnBet page is listed as Feb 2nd, 2009...so that's probably when BetonBet was sold to Eurolinx earlier this year.

I know the dates don't match up all that well, but with the companynames and Remme's involvment in both companies I think it's to much of a coincident to just push it aside as nothing. And these companies were liquidated at about the same time as the problems started happening if my memory serves me right. Eurolinx AS was around the same time as the BigRounder controversy I think? And betonbet not long before people starting having trouble with cashouts etc

+1 on Liquidator information so we can file claims..

way way way more. was basically all good HS players on EL. also the outstanding withdrawals just from one thread between players was totalling over $2million.

Ok, sorry to beat this to death but there is alot to read over with all of these posts, and I am just finding out about my money being locked up. Is there a address/ email that is set up for claims at this point. If so, what is it. Again sorry to ask the same question over and over. Thanks everyone.

Sounds like a plausible scenario. Some downsides:

It's cost them an absolute shedload of money. More money.

It'd be a nightmare of organisation.

There really are no guarantees that they'd get anything back if they get hold of Jo Remme and all his financial instruments, and blowtorch his testicles for good measure.

not yet

On June 18th. I requested 2 cashouts.

I got my last cash out 8/03/2009 for 5200.
I had another cashout request form same day of 3200 that is still held on/at EL.

I was able to obtain money this recent because I had my affiliate "rakeupdate" email EL and pressure them for my money.

I was also able to get Amazon Vouchers from Jackie on 7/01/09 for 1500$. I began requesting these in Early june. She told me they had to pay by credit card, but the card was taking a long time to get approved (to buy the voucers i presume off amazon).

If anybody gets serious about organising a lawyer, I'm def willing to chip in, I only have $11500 on there though. I have some friends who would be in too for larger amouns

i lost 4500$ all my roll....
Its the same than people lost 1500000000000000, for me and for his is the same.. all the bank roll.

For all of us that rely on online gaming for a livelihood, this is a scam that has the potential to cause lasting damage to our potential to generate income. It may cause a drastic examination of the practise of rakeback, it may repel the casual punter and it also may damage the career opportunities of those who have been employed by Jo Remme.

I’m personally affected by this amoral mess but not by the extent of some of the high rollers that have posted.

However, I’ve trying to be as rational as possible.

Everyone has been duped by Remme: the employees, the players, Microgaming.

Let’s take the three groups that he conned in order:

The employees: they had little reason to question the authenticity of the business – they were simply hired for a job at a time when opportunities are scarce. How many people under those circumstances would perform a background check on a company that projected an image of economic viability? The company was expanding, it had a growing reputation and gambling is seen to be one of the industries less liable to feel the crunch of recession.

Did they ultimately realise that the company was being run by a shyster when players started to clamour for their withdrawals?

Not likely.

It is far more likely that the employees believed Remme’s line that it was a cash flow problem. Yes, the support staff would have known that they were lying to the players when they said the cash is on its way – but that does not mean that they knew that the boss was scamming.

They will have believed Remme’s claim that they simply had to placate the players in the short term because the cash was on its way. A lot of them would have been in their first job and keen to believe the boss because he was paying their wages.

They were probably just being trusting and loyal in difficult circumstances. It is extremely unlikely that Remme’s staff knew anything of the plan; but it is extremely likely that they now feel as betrayed as the poker playing community.

They have been left jobless, unpaid and are coming to terms with the fact that the man they trusted, the man the man they worked hard for – the man that forced them to lie – is anything but the individual that they thought they knew. A lot of them were probably working harder than ever through this mess because they thought they could help save the company.


The players:

Could we argue that the players should have a greater reason than the employees to perform some elementary background check on the site? Well, and I think this is going to be tough, I think we, the players, have to start to think more carefully where we place our rolls.

It is an investment, after all.

In most other scenarios that involve the transferring of large sums, people would seek out more information. Most poker sites are still considerably less than ten years old and it is becoming very obvious that few of them ring-fence our cash.

The Remme scam has to be a profound wake-up call to all of us. If we want choice, decent rakeback and appealing promotions, we have to be honest with ourselves and accept that the risk is greater at the sites that offer them. Therefore, in an industry that is likely to remain unregulated for some time, we will have to be prepared to be more diligent ourselves.

Microgaming:

Of the three effected groups, MG should have been the most diligent of all. MG should not have been duped, particularly in light of Tusk. It is unacceptable, unprofessional and we should lobby hard to makes sure that not only does MG tighten up its act, but so does every network. It has now happened to MG twice. You could argue that once is a genuine mistake.....but twice? This cannot be allowed to happen again.

And it won’t if the players exercise a greater degree of risk assessment and the networks step forward with proper measures that enable them to police the skins.

The problem is that everyone wants easy money and that is what Remme exploited. He knew that the industry was not regulated, he knew MG did not properly vet its skins and he knew poker players can be greedy individualists.

It was (another) scam waiting to happen.

Let’s try to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

Like some have already said, I am willing to contribute a percentage of my BR to get this resolved, if that is even possible. I dont have near the same amount of money as some but this is the first time I have ever been scammed and it def. hits home. I have money on Bodog as well and question their legitamacy as well. Personally I dont know much of the history of this scandal or the others but whoever is responsible needs to made an example of. Charges need to be pressed and they need to be harsh enought to deter others from thinking about doing it again.

Actually Betcorp/Betholdem/123Poker ripped players, skin owners and affiliates off about 4 years ago so that is 3 poker room groups. They never did pay affiliates/skins but Bodog bailed the players out by giving them the cash with a WR that I think was only a 1x. This is why it is so important to understand your money is not safe on an MG site. This is just going to happen again and again. Eurolinx dates back to Tain, who would have thought this was coming? Just because you think the skin you play on is strong does not mean this is impossible. When/if you get stolen from then you aren't going to find many that care or are willing to help.

I was one of the victims there and since this scandal is not widely known, Im going to tell it here.

The first thing I did was signing up a 60%RB account on the MG skin Betholdem.
I never got paid so I cashed out and registrered another account via another affiliate on another MG skin 123poker. There things went well and I played there on and off.

Somewhere in feb 2007 Bodog bogth both these two betcorp sites.
So far so good. Here something highly unusual happened.
Neither 123poker, Betholdem or Bodog informed their players about this!
All you know is, you click on the microgaming icon on your desctop but the microgaming software never loads.

I finally did a search and found out what happened.
Next thing happening is that Bodog instead of creating one account (For Betholdem+123poker.) creates two accounts.
Then I get an email from their security department telling me my account is locked and funds confiscated because "I have created multiple accounts on Bodog" which is not allowed!



I finally got my money back and a Bodog account but it was a hell of a sweat.
As far as I know, there was no wagering condition involved at all.

I can't find any articles that mention the WR so I could be wrong there, 1x sounds right but it was long ago, Oct 2006 so not as long as I thought. One thing I had forgotten about is that players had their accounts locked for what looks like 4-8 weeks before Bodog bought them out so even though those players got bailed out they had a month or two to suffer before the good news came.

I dont really have a clue about the exact time or how long this mess lasted.
In oct 2006 I was playing at other skins and during xmas there were some good promotions.
I dont think I got my money until feb 2007

Can we please make a new thread specifically for players and friends that want to collaborate on legal action against EL, BOB, Jo Remme, etc? This thread is way too big and broad for us to make any real headway.

Also, fds - your input is hugely appreciated. I realize you're not an expert on the subject, but obviously you know way more about this area than any of us. Your continued input would be appreciated.

-DrG

EL owes me about 250 $ . its peanuts i know but shouldnt i still send an email somewhere or something or do you all think i d just ship it .

chestnut13

don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but Jo Arild Remme has been known to be involved in pyramid schemes and other shady businesses before. certainly something which might be troubling for people looking to get their money.

It has been mentioned several times

DISCLAIMER: NOT LEGAL ADVICE. INFO ONLY.

if anybody has a copy of EL's terms and conditions, I'd appreciate it if you either post itt or pm it to me.

After doing some VERY brief research, it appears that U.S. jurisdiction is all but guaranteed. The bigger issue is whatever choice of law or forum selection clause that is in the terms and conditions, although there are numerous ways of getting through these, and on first glance I'd say that we would likely succeed. But I need to see the exacts terms of those clauses in the T&C.

Also, there certainly would be an issue of enforcing any judgment, which I haven't looked into.