Josem,

You said that you are in no way affaliated with pokerstars, yet, in this thread you have made 43(so far) posts defending them. 43 [censored] posts! LOL. who on earth would do that without a vested interest?

Come on dude, just admit you're shill. It's nothing to be ashamed of, poker sites have been employing them since they opened their doors.

Just wondering, why will stars not publish their algorithm? I read the article that jaydub posted earlier in the thread and it was quite interesting. Planetpoker had a faulty rng and was spotted when reviewed. Cigital(the company who reviewed stars rng) has clearly given stars their stamp of approval which means 1)it is random 2)the algorithim has no weak points for potential hackers to break the code. Maybe Stars could publish the code given that Cigital has approved it?

Do you have any evidence that I'm affiliated with PS?

What evidence can I reasonably provide that I am not employed by PokerStars?

Me.

...but I'm not. I'm currently an employee of the Australian Government (I obviously do not speak on their behalf here).

ZOMG! RIGGED folks like RJD are bad for online poker, so many people have an interest in making sure his unsubstantiated drivel is adequately refuted. Josem is doing this so you don't have to...

How am I bad for online poker, i think just the opposite is true.

Wouldn't anybody here like to see a third party group oversee these sites?

Your unsubstantiated scaremongering and lies about sites being rigged decreases the faith that people have in their operation.

This is a fairly obvious deterrent to some people playing.

I think it would be great if there was a truly independent regulator and/or arbiter and/or appeals process for complaints. In fact, you can read a thread I started on this at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post10826588

Please note that any future abusive remarks to other posters will result in at least temporary bannings from the forums.

Kindly keep the debate civil.

Thanks Mike.

Agree with Josem obviously. There are enough gullible people out there who are reluctant to even try online-poker because of the paranoid rumors that "it's rigged and they set it up so you can't win. It's not real cards. I've played cards a long-time and you can just TELL a difference."

That's why it becomes necessary to point out that losing players are actually losing because they aren't playing well and through their own self-denial about their skills.

Someone like OnlinePro is a good example.
Good players point out the costly mistakes me makes at the tables but he simply chooses to ignore that aspect.

He himself even acknowledges that he plays for long stretches of time on a lot of tables. But then goes back on his own idea and blames his lack of success on 'doom account' or it's rigged against him or it must be a cash-out curse or whatever.


As always, I'm still pretty fascinated by the people who so strongly believe in this stuff. Particularly the ones who so strongly believe in it yet continue to play there.
I sure as hell know that if I thought it was rigged or cash-out cursed or whatever then I certainly wouldn't play there AT ALL.
But some of these people seem to not be able to help themselves and they play and play and play there even though they supposedly know how cursed or rigged or skewed it is.

It's just weird. Why would one continue playing there if they thought that?


Different Q - Is realjaydub a former 2+2'er?
This couldn't possibly be a new gabbyyyy account, could it?

That would be awesome if so.

Einstein .. Australian laws govern people who live in ... now stay with me here ...

Australia.

Unless the proprietors of River Stars happen to visit your little far off isolated corner of the planet they are no more subject to the jurisdiction thereof than I am to Captain Kirk's on the Starship Enterprise.

Stop being a mouthpiece.

This is at best incomplete, at worst 100% wrong.

Well... they did publish their shuffle algorithm:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/features/security/

Their explanation for the shuffle is sufficient to generate a completely random shuffle.

And to anyone that believes that there is non-randomness in some circumstances (near bubble of a tournament, after a cashout, on the 2nd Tuesday after a full moon etc), it's extremely easy to verify if it is occuring. Simply post a large sample of hands that meet that criteria under consideration and people here can do an analysis of it.

Two points:
1) If statistical analysis can't find anything unrandom [a] about it, then a person looking at the hands won't be able to detect it.
2) If the deviation from the normal is too small to detect, then why rig it if the total effect on results is so small?

Any reasonable, rational argument against the randomness of the cards would need to refute these points.

[a]: Note: Of course, it's impossible to say if a sequence is random or not by just having the sequence, but it is possible to give a probability of whether something is randomly generated.

No. This is wrong. Australian laws govern actions which occur in Australia. An obvious comparison can be made to people who run fraudulent hoaxes by mail - stealing money like this is a pretty obvious breach of the local laws. They are rarely pursued because of the difficulty in identifying the alleged offender.

I'm willing to wager that every single Australian court is going to claim jurisdiction over a fraud committed over the internet that targetted Australians.

You will get exactly the same response from any US court.


You are wrong for the reasons outlined above. In addition, Australia has extradition treaties with many countries (most obviously, the UK and many European countries)

I'm not a mouthpiece for anyone other than myself.

jesus.

a) I have never "developed a system" that beats the RNG. This is so absurd.

b) then why do good live players often become good online players and vice versa? There are no "boom" accounts.

c) you suck bawls, and thats why you think its rigged.

d) you are rediculous. stop being stubborn. admit you are wrong and work on your GAME instead of blaming "the cashout curse".

lets make a bet. I play on your account after you cash out for 1 week and I make money. BETS?

Anyone who really thinks this nonsense:
Why wouldn't you just make a new account where you might get a 'fresh start' and maybe get a "winning" account?

The people who lose and lose and don't understand that a good player on their account playing those exact same hands would have done better just blows me away.

I originally tried arguing earnestly with those who claim that online poker is rigged. I now believe that it is the wrong thing to do. I was arguing with the wrong target audience.

It is a lot like the arguments about 9/11 conspiracies in the politics forum. The people arguing in favour of a world-wide conspiracy to attack the World Trade Centre, like the people who claim that online poker is rigged, have such a radically different view on the world (as compared to the mainstream) that it is impossible to debate reasonably.

However, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, it is still important to respond to these claims - because regardless of how silly, unsubstantiated and illogical it is to claim that online poker is rigged, there will always be people who believe it.


It's not possible to convince the fringe dwellers who are absolutely convinced that online poker is rigged. It's not possible to change the minds of those people who believe the 9/11 attacks was a neo-conservative conspiracy. All that rational people can do is to hope to make an impression on the undecided people in the middle.

Correct. Well, at least as far as convincing the "poker is rigged" crowd goes. I'll have to take your word for the rest; the little I see of politics in ATF is enough for me.

I guess I don't see why anyone needs to be convinced one way or the other really. Believe what you want and vote with your feet...

No one NEEDS to be convinced. However, I'd rather have players who lose all the time keep playing rather than becoming convinced poker is rigged, and telling their fishy friends, and so on, and so on.

Liar.

I see your point. Onward Christian soldier!

Hehehe, most of my play has been at hollywood until they banned us players....

but anywho....you've been leveled to the 9nth degree, Good job buddy

Here's my stats for hollywood.

Obv a boom account.

Hehehehe Obviously...cuz i suck bawls.

578 < 1000 < 2000 (the minimum level to claim thousands).