If there's a better thread that already exists, feel free to point me in the right direction. I'm an American player trying to make the best of the dismal situation regarding online poker. I was a winning $100NL before black Friday on both Stars and Full Tilt and I've started over in the micros on Carbon. I don't remember what the rake used to be at PokerStars and FullTilt when I played, but I don't remember ever thinking it was a problem in Full Ring. I DID think it was a problem in HU $50NL and I was never able to develop my HU game in part because of that.

Today when I play, I feel like rake is a BIG problem. I'm currently playing $10NL and it's been really slow going. Part of the problem is lack of players and table selection. However, it seems like when I win pots, that I'm just not winning as much as I feel like I should. I've copied and pasted Carbon and PokerStars rake structure below, but unfortunately, I don't know or remember the rake when I was playing pre Black Friday. If I'm interpreting this right, Carbon looks like it's basically 5.5% rake and the cap looks extremely high basically UNCAPPED at $10NL unless the pot gets to $72, which pretty much never happens at $10NL and probably not often at $25NL either.

To add insult to injury, they got rid of rakeback however many months ago, so I can't even earn some of it back. Am I looking at the rake the right way? Is it unreasonably high for the micros? Based on that CAP structure, it doesn't seem like it's going to get any better until maybe $50NL.

I'm clearly better than the majority of these players and winning a fair share of pots and it just seems like when I lose a big pot it takes forever to dig out of a hole because when I win, it just doesn't seem like it's enough. It's very frustrating.

Carbon
No Limit / Pot Limit Games: $0.02/$0.04 - $2.00/$4.00
# of Players Rake per $0.18 in pot Maximum Rake
2 $0.01 $1.00
3 - 4 $0.01 $2.00
5 - 9 $0.01 $4.00

PokerStars
US Dollar Games
No Limit and Pot Limit*
Stakes % Rake 2 Player Cap 3-4 Player Cap 5+ Player Cap
$0.01/$0.02 3.50% $0.30 $0.30 $0.30
$0.02/$0.05 4.15% $0.50 $0.50 $1.00
$0.05/$0.10 to $0.08/$0.16 4.50% $0.50 $1.00 $1.50
$0.10/$0.25 4.50% $0.50 $1.00 $2.00
$0.25/$0.50 4.50% $0.50 $1.50 $2.50
$0.50/$1 to $3/$6 4.50% $0.50 $1.50 $2.80
$5/$10 to $10/$20 4.50% $0.50 $1.50 $3.00
$25/$50 4.50% $0.50 $2.00 $3.00
$50/100 4.50% $2.00 $3.00 $5.00
$100/$200 and above 4.50% $2.00 $5.00 $5.00

Summary:

- Carbon Rake is high
- You are awesome

/end thread

p.s. To be fair, this was all hashed out a few months ago when they greatly increased the rake back in the days when there was a sponsored thread, but that's disappeared.

So you're saying the rake was once reasonable and then it was raised to its currently unreasonable rake and there was much discussion and outrage? And that thread was deleted or you just don't know the link?

I agree with your assessment on Carbon Rake Structure. I've been playing there since September, 25NL and 50NL and it seems like the your loosing more then when your winning. (pot wise, rake)


I would say 90 percent of the players there are long time or short term losers. I only see one player at 50NL who is a life time winner, crusher.

When playing HU, at 10NL or 25 NL or maybe even 50NL the rake is pretty significant in trying to make money. I avoid HU because of this.

I'm surprised the Merge affiliate lapdogs haven't gotten this thread removed. Give them time. Oh, hey, great 5k freeroll coming, lol.

That is mostly exactly right. First rake was jacked up, then VIP cashback percentages slashed, making the effective rake really freaking high.

The "ZOMG the rake was raised" thread was one of many sub-threads in the sponsored thread that Carbon used to have on 2p2. That got closed (Carbon decided to stop having a sponsored thread here) and everything was deleted. There used to be a sticky that announced the closing of the old Carbon thread and all its subthreads, but that's gone too. Not that seeing the old thread would change anything...

kinda surprised too

I couldn't find a network charging higher rakes than Merge for NL games. Are there any? I wonder why a network thinks they can cut rakeback and promotions and jack up rake and not be alarmed at the downward spiral in player numbers? Where is this new Merge CEO from and where did he study business?

There are actually quite a few, all those that require national licenses (e.g. France, Spain, Italy) do charge a higher rake by default.

It's pretty easy to make moves like this when you have essentially no competitors. Lock melting down the Revolution network probably helped Merge out more than any promo they've ever dreamt up.

When I have some downtime, I'm going to run some calculations on the average rake being drained per hour in terms of big blinds and from that try to figure out what kind of winrate I need to have an upward trend. I start a lot of tables and play heads up to try to get more tables, but in light of the rake, this could be a major leak.

If there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I don't mind grinding out $10NL if $25NL is a big improvement because the pots are bigger and/or the fish are the same. My fear is that won't be the case since you'd need 3 allin's to just barely cap the rake. More likely $50NL, but even then, most pots won't be capped.

I love Carbon's software and site and although there aren't a lot of tables, there are enough, but this rake thing is really making things difficult. Most players really have no chance. I think it'll take a special player to both be good enough and have the patience to move up.

he doesn't really care though. he couldn't find a site with higher rakes, it's true. because he didn't look.

also the Italian underground networks like ENET,League, Dollaro charge pots up to 5€ or so (I believe that dollaro has ~7 € cap at midstakes).
Tho at least games are there fishier.

I meant of the few remaining American facing sites that don't have to get any national licenses.

I'll look forward to your calculations. I just find it odd that they are so quick to drop long running promotions and rakeback then raise the rake they charge, while at the same time not cutting the 40% they give to affiliates on a players lifetime of rake.

You think things are bad?? I am moving from Sportsbook to Carbon to get a upgrade in player rewards Sportsbook doesn't let you trade points for cash. They make us do double or nothings and if you go 50 50 you get 10% effective rake back.

At carbon at least you can get $150 for 10,000 points (on the level i would be)

Things are bad indeed....

Wow just looked at Carbon and has it got bad. This is the one time I can say thank god I live in New Jersey.

Wow. Still playing several tournaments daily at Carbon. Still consistently finishing ITM 21-23% of the time. Rebuilding bankroll steadily after last cashout several weeks ago. My, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Thank God I still have Carbon to play on. Just sayin...

The high cash game rake is just a short sighted money grab. Currently Merge is trying to get players interested in their mobile clients. But mobile players tend to play cash games. That's because it's difficult for a mobile player to join any kind of tournament when they are on a lunch break, waiting at the airport, or sitting at the Senate. With NHLE cash games charging a ridiculously high rake and the LHE games being completely neglected by the site there aren't may games left for mobile players. It's all just more evidence that the network is run by myopic bean counters who are oblivious to the larger picture.

This thread is about cash game rake. What does tournaments have to do with cash game rake? I don't doubt the tournaments are good but not everyone plays them.

My bad. Didn't realize thread subject was cash game rake. I just reacted to another knock on Carbon and expressed my feelings about Carbon. Again, my bad.

i usually dont do the leaves, just let nature take its course. what kind of material should i be looking at when purchasing a rake?