Hi 2+2!

I am writing today because there is one poker room out there that is completely ignoring the presence of bots at the tables.

I play 100s expresso (spin&go) tables on Winamax.

So we are talking about Winamax. There is one player with screename TWOPANDAS that is using CLEARLY a GTO bot which is giving advices in real time to him.

Speaking with other regular players we collected many evidence about him. He is doing always the perfect GTO move, in every spot, in every moment. He is playing 12 hours a day, every day, 8 tabling and chatting on tables like he is on pool drinking cocktails.
Now seeing that Winamax was not punishing him, he added other players with the same bot, who are playing in different hours than him and togheter they are owning totally the rankings of promotions and the tables.

He/They forced to quit all good players at 100s, because now, in 2017, is impossible to compete long term with such a good GTO bot advisor.

I forgot to mention that before this bot, he was one of the worst regs around, and he never put on the volume he is doing now.

Every player I have spoken with sent many e-mails to Winamax about this situation. Answers? Zero. They are investigating since 5 months it seems. Maybe they don't care about their reputation.


What's the next move in your opinion?


Just give up and let the bots take over?

i dont see much of a case there. guy was bad, he is much better now, and thats it ? he progressed maybe. maybe entered some stable and told em about fields on wmx and then more regs from the stable came ?

I don't know which is your experience with Spin&go format. Is not possible for humans to grind 8 tables and play perfect GTO game, 12 hours/day, every day.

And what evidence do you have that he is playing perfect GTO?

haters gonna hate seems like to me.

We checked hundreds hands in GTO solver.

He never did a single mistake. Lines and sizes are perfect.

If he is not bot, he is the best player in history by far.

have to give my point of view aswell, since i been playing a bit few months back on Winamax, since i wanted to give another site a shoot since the RB at stars was reduced to almust nothing ( 2-3% ) anyway i been playing 100€ expresso aswell, and vs this Twopandas.

I been playing spins for the last 3 years, played arround 100k games, so i have a very good experience playing alot of diffrent players.

As many knows who is familiar with spin and go, alot players from Stars got banned using bots, or other programs, and its pretty funny but i wasnt even suspecious about it, likely because the field is alot bigger and you play diffrent kind of regs often.

anyway playing on winamax, and vs this screen Twopandas like 150 games a day for like 1½ months i think, it became clear too me this player is either the best player i ever played, or more likely using a bot.

I spending alot time study GTO in a solver myself, and aswell been study this player game, and im confident there is less then 5% chance this player isnt using a bot.

I have a very big network of regulars and this stake, and severel players have been playing same player, with same experience.

Been trying get in touch with Winamax and they dosnt seem to care about it, dosnt reply, even though in TOC, they claim not to support any use of bots!

Atm this playing forcing every player of the site, since no regs can compete against this player, and the field size is also low.

All we want as players is a fair game right?

So i wonder if there is something to do, or just let bots take over, and rip poker within few year.

If you don't want to play against a computer, then don't play poker on a computer.

what is this? a childroom.com?

lets get some serious people on the hook.

no one in here is jungleman. if jungleman were here he would be able to tell us if there were bots being used based on his sense of smell alone.

riddle me this batman, if you can discern that all of his decisions are GTO shouldn't you therefore know every GTO solution yourself and therefore be unbeatable???

~~~paging jungleman's nose.~~~

in the meantime why don't you try playing a less solved form of poker if you don't want to play GTO bots??? i hear HU limit holdem has great action!!!!

Mmmmm cocktails

Who told you that this particular bot (and many other accounts) is not owned by winamax itself? Do you think they are stupid and just gives away 90% of rb to the same players every month? Time to grow up, don't be naive and start to understand how the real world works.

Could you give a few examples of this? What solver did you use to check?

i also feel like something suspicous is going on on winaxmax

I don't play Spins, but I know a couple of regs at the $100 level on Stars. They've said they were offered "GTO bots" for that game (by a player that has apparently been banned), at a cost of several thousand dollars. I would be not at all surprised if the same bots are being used on Winamax.

Sites that are not named Pokerstars do not have a department for dealing with bots. I feel sorry for you, but it's the reality in 2017.

I think the same. They "finally" find a poker room where they can print money without being punished.

Even if the bot costs thousand dollars, in few months he earned more than 100k for sure. And lately, more new nicknames joined the field with the same game style.

What it would be your next move in my place? (Change poker room unfortunately is not an option)

I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes. If it is written in the site rules (that botting is against TOS), and you can provide evidence yourself- you could lodge a complaint the the regulators.

On stars, accounts are banned and when funds are seized as well there is enough proof to hold up in court (usually some regulatory body).

It is difficult to gather proof as an individual unfortunately, and you might not have experience as to what constitutes "proof" to a regulatory body. I doubt lodging a complaint as a disgruntled customer right now will do anything.

ive seen a couple threads on different poker forums. 100% agree he is using some type of live software that gives him advice. I will explain my reasoning below.

quick background of me, I used to play HU cap, switched to 100 spins on stars, then about a 1.5 years ago, made another switch to spins on winamax.

1. twopandas and his roommate philivey2694 (now his name is doug pork in the 50s), its very obvious they are roomates sharing the same IP because when they first started out playing wina spins around October-November of 2016. they never played in the same games.
I don't have a problem with this because this doesn't violate any tos,
-however if you were a reg back in the day you noticed his roommate philivey2694(doug pork) was 10 times better than twopandas, philivey2684(doug pork) was definitely a winning 100s reg in pokerstars, if he ever player there. he was a smart player who had multiple bet sizes on every street and attacked peoples ranges, I don't think philivey2684(doug pork) was a bot back then cuz he had some minor leaks that gto bots would not have, and you can tell the skill level difference between a gto bot and philivey(doug pork),
-this is the first point that alarmed me twopandas might be a bot, when twopandas first started late 2016 he sucked. he would probably be a breakevish/slightly winning $15 spin reg. he didn't have multiple sizings, it was very easy to attack his range, he clearly was not a bot because he had terrible leaks preflop and postflop. I spoke with many regs on wina, and showed hand history of twopandas a year ago to now to my 2 roomates, one is a 100/200nl 6max zoom reg and the other used to play HS hu turbos and now plays HU nl deep.
everyone says the same thing. huge increase in skill level. from October 2016 to around may 2017 twopandas was a $15 pokerstars reg based on skill level at best. ALLLL OFF A SUDDENNNNN, mid june comes and he suddenly implements many betsizes on every street, he suddenly has gto like numbers in many streets, he had min donk bet ranges, he had 3 differnet sizings for raises, he had pot bets, min bets, 1.5x bets on every street. all of this can be confirmed by winamax if they had someone like watergun investigating twopandas.
- come mid june philivey(dougpork) stopped playing and around the same time , twopandas started to win every single tlb every single week and was 6+ tabling 8-10 hours a day crushing everyone. I 95% believe philivey(doug pork) and twopandas decided it was more plus ev to both play on one account to go for the tlb. they succeeded in there cheating because they placed 1st on the tlb since june around 95% of the time, twopandas since june has been playing everysingle day 8+ hours a day averaging over 250 games a day. some weeks when 2nd and 3rd would put in a lot of volume , twopandas would average 350 + games that week.
- I know there are some regs that are capable of playing that many tables at once for example (rayden on stars) but when I played vs rayden he had some leaks when he was 6-8 tabling. respect to rayden but you knew he wasn't a gto bot, because of those leaks.
- I purposely will make some strange plays because I knew twopandas was 8 tabling. and he would decide on a play immediately without any thought process. I played thousands of hands against twopandas and he might have took more than 10 seconds to think of a decision probably for around 10 hands, even though we played thousands of hands for over a year.

- I looked at the 50s leaderboard and noticed doug pork now started playing again since past couple weeks, they probably started feeling the heat, since this is like the 3rd different thread on different sites (winamax forum) about twopandas being a bot. given the uproar from lots of regs and emails sent to winamax. I bet doug pork started to grind 50s now just so it can look less sketchy to winamax. doug pork is definitely now using gto live assistance software because all his plays make sense. ( ill make another post about him in the future)

- I definitely make some mistakes because I 4-5 table 100s. but its very disheartening to see twopandas and doug pork never make mistakes. its sickening that winamax has done nothing about this. because besides me I know 2 other regs that sent emails to winamax. im not sure what else people can do. I sent emails to winamax showing screenshots of pio and how he makes his play. I sent emails to winamax saying they should investigate the huge skil level improvement from may 2017- june 2017. its literaly a $15 reg become a $100 reg crushing everyone.

when you play 100s on winamax you need at least a 30k bankroll because of the high rake and sucky multiplier frequency %'s. I guarantee if winamax were to look at twopandas cashier since june, he probably keeps under 7k in his account, because he knows he is cheating and doesn't want to leave any money in the cashier, I keep always at least 15-25k in my cashier because you can easily go on 4-5k swings in a day, and 10-15k swings in a week.


theres a 100% chance if watergun was employed by winamax to verify if twopandas and philivey(doug pork), that twopandas and doug pork would be banned. 10000000% . but sadly that's never gonna happen and of course its 2017 and everyone cheats. so GG WINAMAX. winamax wont do anything about him.

- I don't think twopandas uses the line his gto live assistance software would recommend 100% of the time, because he adjusts based on the player. for example, piosolver likes to protect there range much more then twopandas. twopandas will probe 3rd-4th pair at a higher freq % in a limped pot if flop goes check,check. I am guessing on winamax he believes just like on stars people don't protect there range enough therefor he likes to get thin value over balancing his range with some lines. twopandas also takes more aggressive lines with his zero equity bluffs at a much higher frequency than piosolver. however his min defense frequencies, and his understanding of when to bet the bottom of your range is extremely close to pio. .
- another ez way to check if hes a bot is his plays vs fish, if you were to look at my results or any other reg you would see a huge winrate vs the fish. twopandas does some extremely dumb **** vs fish. Either he didn't study any population tendencies vs fish. or he is just 8 tabling and takes the line his gto software would recommend since he doesn't have a large sample hud on the fish.

in conclusion, I have no clue how to stop his cheating, he is paying 70-85k in rake to winamax a month. they have no incentive to investigate him. its sad but its 2017. no clue what else can be done.

no clue what can be done, oborra is 95% using some type of software and he continues to play on stars and other sites. if stars wont ban oborra, what are the chances winamax will ban twopandas lol.

no,one in the history of poker can make that jump/ progression in that short a time spam. unless you are a genius its extremely rare for someone to be a $15 skill level spin reg to all of a sudden a month later start 6+ tabling the 100s vs good $100 spin regs every single day.

Hi all,
first of all sorry i cant reveal my real name, i am just afraid i am going to be banned if i reveal those informations. I am very well known player in poker circles being pro since 2012 and you all know me very well.

Everything started in april 2016(or month before not 100% sure) , and everything started when they removed option to see how many games player play and when .

There was option to click on player name and see his entire history of games and stuff for that week . Than winamax for no reason changed that .

It also happens that one player chase first place and you dont see him in any game and he just going up up up and you play in same time(there is no single chance that there is such a big traffic on site ) . I played 12 tables for example and didnt saw that player in one single table ...

i here also confirm that twosaintpandas use some tool, or he's just bot.

I have evidence of him and 20-30 more players that they are bots.

They are separated in divisions , most of em are on 25's , than 3-5 are on 50s and 2 of em are on 100 . I am not sure about lower stakes, but some players are banned at 5-10's as well .

Also , i mailed support of winamax and they banned few players, but i am afraid to report more players cose they can ban me , cose i know more than allowed.

Most of em have itm more than 38% and they dont make more than 7-10 cEV in my database. They dont play vs each other , they have sit list or bot list or whatever . They are also separated to win weekly leaderboard , so they can share entire cake.

I will try uploading video tonight with few evidences and you can see what i am talk about, but i had to see how to hide my name just in case to make sure i am not getting banned cose i know more than anyone should do.

cheers

we are happy bot family :
2saintpandas and two pandas one playin 100s 2nd play 25s and both doin same thing


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be8fMqn8RRk

also sorry i didnt sent more hands , thats enough for now....

also if you try this and they put entire stack u need to know that they have nuts or 2nd nuts .
in that case they just ship all chips.

wow anyone know wth this is checkout this youtube video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwXY6fH5I6o

If it's not collecting the card data from the client hand histories (like I think HEM does with Zoom tables), it's doing something that I think is called "screen-scraping", where the AI software actually recognises what cards are on the poker table. It's kind of like how Facebook does facial recognition on uploaded photos and Google/Youtube bots can auto-categorize video uploads that contain cats. i.e. If you tell the bot "This is what the ace of spades looks like", it can correctly identify when the ace of spades comes on the turn.

As far as I know, it's not expressly illegal (on most sites) to use tools that "grab" the cards on the table, but it is illegal to use tools that then give advice on what to do with your own cards, or that automatically take actions on your behalf. (The latter is the classic form of "pokerbot", which doesn't even require an operator to sit in front of the screen. It's been pre-programmed with algorithms that tell it how to play TPTK or a flush draw, for example).

Many of the illegal bots use a mixture of screen-scraping and auto-play. Some merely give "advice", and a human still clicks the buttons, which makes it harder for the bot to be detected, because the human would still be moving their mouse around and clicking buttons at a "human" speed. Both types of AI help are banned on Pokerstars.