I was playing 1/2 NL live cash game. After 6 hours of play at 5:30AM in the morning I went all in with two more players.
The flop came open handed straight. On the turn my opponent turned set of kings and he jumped up in celebration.
My straight never came and I threw my cards face down on the table without touching the muck. Than i slowly realized that I did get my flash! I quickly reached for my cards and turned them up. I did have a winning hand! But the dealer quickly took my cards and put them in the middle of the mucked deck. I said: "What are you doing? My cards are retrievable" Dealer said that I mucked my cards . Floor manager arrived. He said that he beleaves to dealer, but will check out the security camera. Floor manager came back and said that I was right, my cards didn't touch the muck, but when I reached for my cards the corner of one card did touch the muck and it's what killed my hand. Is floor manager ruling was correct or he just was covering for his dealer?

Think this is location dependent. I think the better ruling is that if your hand is retrievable and clearly distinct from the muck, you should be allowed to table it, and I don't really care if the corner of a card touched the muck or not.

That said, fault is almost entirely with you for trying to muck a winning hand.

Well, nothing you can do. He said they touched the muck so your hand is dead.

This is what I call a magic muck. Some rooms have a rule that if face down cards touch the muck at all, it's dead. It doesn't matter how obvious it is which two cards belong to the player. If this room has that rule, it's the correct ruling, but in my opinion a poor rule. My room used to have this but I was able to talk them into changing it.

The muck is not magical. Touching the muck alone should not kill a hand. But there are plenty of rooms which do have this horrible rule. If it is the rule in this room then maybe it was a good ruling. But it is still a horribad rule.

Yes, I had similar situation in another casino and I was in opposite situation. Another player mucked his hand and dealer putted cards on top of the mucked cards. Than player realise his mistake and asked to retrieve his cards back. Floor manager was called. He confirmed with dealer that these two cards belong to the player, than confirmed with player which cards he had. After he open the mucked cards which matched description of the player's cards. Floor manager in this casino said that because the cards could be identified for sure, this is a retrievable hand, so the player eligible for winning hand.

Room dependent ... None of us like doing it, but turn your cards up no matter how badly they may seem to be. GL

That sir is a horribad rule.

Dealer keeping mucked hands retrievable? Unbelievable.

The magic muck is a bad rule. Here in California, I can't imagine any of our rooms killing your hand in that situation.

But if it is their rule, then you lose.

Many places allow cards to be played that are retrievable. Some others are more restrictive. Even places that allow it can vary from hand to hand depending on dealers/floors whims. So learn the house rules. Don't totally count on them to be always followed. Protect your hand.

Also protect your hand after you turn it over; when you grab it and turn it up, don't let the dealer take it and muck it. You have a much better chance of arguing that your hand wasn't mucked if it is on the table, face up in front of you when the floor arrives.

Either a terrible ruling or a terrible rule. Both leave you feeling screwed.

From day one, as a player, that has been very obvious to me.

I'm amazed how many think nothing bad could happen when leaving cards completely unprotected.

Or that their hand should be magically protected when "I didn't even look at it yet.".

This is usually situational at my casino and depends on how the dealer feels. Some are a bit more forgiving of a screw up like this and it doesn't touch the mucked cards in the middle, ie, you threw it down in disgust face down in front of you.

By every right however, the dealer properly assumed that you mucked because you threw it at the table after the villain showed. Once the cards are mixed in to the rest of the mucked cards, I've never seen a floor manager side with the "hero" in retrieving the cards.

Just let this be a lesson in protecting your cards. Don't always throw it down in disgust, worst comes worst just throw it down face up and that will never as a muck!

In addition to protecting your cards, I've seen dealers grab face down cards (She had a boat) in front of a player's stack by accident when they assumed you folded. Use a chip as a card protector!

When will people learn to just not muck their hands prematurely? Or turn them over regardless. Everyone is always ashamed and scared to flip their cards which is just a peer peeve of mine. I wish cash games enforced the tourney rule, all in? Flip your cards.

Lesson learned to you

The rule is fine. Even standard. What is horrid is the dealer muck procedure. His job on a muck is to make sure the cards cannot be identifiable. 10 kitn too him.


Also dealer fishing in the muck, even on dealer say, is also bad. If the cards were just touching and camera could identify them then floor retrieving them is diff. Single kitn to floor.

once you threw your cards in face down and another person handles them it should always be dead. how is the other player supposed to believe that a hand that was folded is now the winner after someone else touched it. how can he be sure that the cards were not switched in some way.
once you fold and lose control of your hand it should be dead. even if it does not touch the muck.

thats how it was done in the past and never had a problem.

Of course this part is true. The problem is, in this case no one folded. Dropping or even tossing forward your cards when not facing a bet is not a fold. It is also not at all clear that they player lost control of his cards. It sounds like he had control to me. He picked them back up and tabled them before anyone else touched them.

this is totally situation dependent and room dependent.


uhh as played, yes id say its live hand. but if theres even a little unsure if its your hand or not, then id say its dead.

we werent there. but it sounds like he touched them to the muck while they were face down. so he must have lost control of them for the cards to be that far away. so he did indicate he wanted to fold his hand. and yes you can fold a hand and its dead even if not facing a bet especially on the end at showdown..
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his mistake was once he retrieved them he let them go again. the cardinal sin in a hand is to physically let go of the winner without all the losing hands gone.

double post

I wasn't there either, but the OP says his hand had not touched the muck before he tabled it.

He didn't protect himself as well as he could have, but I can't imagine his hand not being live anywhere I have ever played much, and I think it would be a terrible rule to kill his hand, assuming the OP was entirely accurate.

As soon as your cards cross the line they should be seen as a fold/muck. That's pretty much what happens in my casino, as soon as your cards cross that line its a fold/muck.

if the room has the uncommon magic muck rule then they are dead... In any other poker room (ie most) they are retrievable.

Then your casino has a non-standard, terrible rule (or you've misunderstood the rule).