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Old 05-06-2017, 11:18 PM   #1
pokerponcho
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Question Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

This hand happened at my B&M casino in a 40/80 Stud8 hand in XYZ. A clown in a smallish pot catches a Ten to compliment his Ace, and bets, there is a fold, and someone who caught an off-suit Q with his deuce calls reluctantly, the other player in the pot is showing a Six and an Ace, has four chips out and is ready to call, but a clown interrupts, "Don't be shy, X", and before you know it it's a raise! The other player in the middle complains to the floor, which gives the clown a warning which is all and good, except he has a history of doing exactly this. The clowny character later explains another day that s/he was making sure that the other player was aware that it was his turn.

add: The clown had a split pair of aces in the hand, and welcomed a raise on 4th. Though he did not explicitly say, "I welcome a raise, X", he put some creative energy into his words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert's Rules of Poker by Bob Ciafonne
POKER ETIQUETTE
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:

Deliberately acting out of turn.

Deliberately splashing chips into the pot.

Agreeing to check a hand out when a third player is all-in.

Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table.

Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown.

Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete.

Needlessly stalling the action of a game.

Deliberately discarding hands away from the muck. Cards should be released in a low line of flight, at a moderate rate of speed (not at the dealer's hands or chip-rack).

Stacking chips in a manner that interferes with dealing or viewing cards.

Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.

Using a cell phone at the table.
http://www.pokercoach.us/robspkrrules4.htm

Floor people, dealers, and players who read 2p2, what are your takes on this hand, and how it applies to the influencing action and one-player-per-hand rules given that the opponent has a history of doing this kind of thing?

Last edited by pokerponcho; 05-06-2017 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:36 PM   #2
Suit
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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Originally Posted by pokerponcho View Post
the other player in the pot has four chips out and is ready to call, but a clown interrupts, "Don't be shy, X"
Nothing wrong with this. Why did the floor warn him?
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:45 PM   #3
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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Nothing wrong with this. Why did the floor warn him?
The clown wants a raise, and is attempting to influence the other player to raise while he thinks about his decision. The clown turns up to have a split pair of aces in this hand and is encouraging action.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:58 AM   #4
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

I disagree with suit, when the hand is multi-way no one should be talking about the hand at all, including making cutesy comments like that.

Having said that, this is like the smallest possible violation. Getting the floor involved isn't likely to do anything, either for the hand itself, or in the future, unless he is a repeat offender (as you say he might be).

Your best bet is to directly tell the player that he should not be talking about the hand when it is multi-way, and if he disagrees with that, then call the floor over.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:48 AM   #5
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Clown's excuse that s/he was trying to wake up the third player sounds believable, despite any history of trying to influence action. I've said similar things to alert a player (though not "don't be shy").

I don't know how you can assume that it influenced action, let alone shorted the third player's wires so thoroughly that he tricked himself into raising. Aside from this being a minor violation at best, your understanding of reality is a long stretch.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:40 PM   #6
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
Clown's excuse that s/he was trying to wake up the third player sounds believable, despite any history of trying to influence action. I've said similar things to alert a player (though not "don't be shy")...
To me, "Don't be shy", sounds much more like a suggestion to raise instead of an attempt to alert someone, so technically a violation multiway.
But I hear comments like this often, and hardly ever does anyone object.
In PL or NL games, it's fairly common for someone to say something like "Don't get carried away", or "Don't make it too expensive", when another player is counting out a raise. I suppose that technically they shouldn't, but no one seems to care.
I suppose that if a player had a history or habit of doing this, you could probably get him warned if you tried hard enough. (But it would probably be a pretty mild warning.)
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:38 PM   #7
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Yeah I agree. I think I should have clarified that it sounds believable if the player had indeed zoned out or appeared to have zoned out. It's much more damning to clown's case if the player was visibly aware and mulling over his action.
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:11 PM   #8
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

The player had 4 chips out and seemed ready to call, not zoned out. I was not the one that called the floor. The man in the 8 seat w the Q on 4th did mentioning that aspect. I brought up another hand where he says in a multiway pot, "You still betting one pair, Y?" referring to me to which I replied, "Shut the **** up, B" and called the floor after the hand was completed. He ALWAYS finds a comment in a multiway pot.
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:23 PM   #9
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Did the floor warn you for dropping an f-bomb and being rude to another player at the table?
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:29 PM   #10
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

At that instance, no. And if the game had more integrity, I'd have no qualms about being polite and not swearing. The floor's opinion is that we are to police ourselves. Swearing is normal in this game. There is no equivalence between swearing and inducing action in terms of etiquette.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:04 PM   #11
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

In other games, influencing action multiway is totally standard and telling somebody to STFU might lead to injury.

The only thing the floor can do about a talking player is to kick him out after warning him for the 17th time. Is that the result you'd like to see? If the floor tells you to police the game yourself he might not be interested to get involved in that at all though.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:16 PM   #12
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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In other games, influencing action multiway is totally standard and telling somebody to STFU might lead to injury.

The only thing the floor can do about a talking player is to kick him out after warning him for the 17th time. Is that the result you'd like to see? If the floor tells you to police the game yourself he might not be interested to get involved in that at all though.
Influencing action multiway is not acceptable in any poker game. Your false equivalence is essentially trolling at this point. Wounding someone's ego with an insult is not comparable to wounding someone's pocket book in a multiway pot. It just isn't.

B's hand should be fouled, and face a 24 hour ban. After B was warned in my hand, he gave the floor a hug, and why shouldn't he, he is profiting from these favourable rulings.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:26 PM   #13
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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Originally Posted by pokerponcho View Post
The floor's opinion is that we are to police ourselves.
IOW, just don't do anything egregious. "Don't be shy" seems far away from crossing that line. In most games, even MW, this hardly counts as even getting off the blocks.

(If you were insinuating some level of collusion/whiplashing, that would be another matter entirely, but you did not mention that at all.)
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:34 PM   #14
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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Originally Posted by pokerponcho View Post
B's hand should be fouled, and face a 24 hour ban. After B was warned in my hand, he gave the floor a hug, and why shouldn't he, he is profiting from these favourable rulings.
I highly doubt you find many floors who kill a hand for doing that. Just not going to happen in most rooms.

I would say influencing action multiway was at least not uncommon in a significant percentage of home games I played in. Some of those had stakes higher than anything I ever played for in a casino. Truth is that most of those players don't play poker at casinos because they feel like everything is way too serious there. And you basically prove their point. Trying to get somebody kicked out for saying 'don't be shy' is ridiculous.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:06 PM   #15
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

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Originally Posted by pokerponcho View Post
Bs hand should be fouled, and face a 24 hour ban.
Ban? sure, if he's a repeat offender.

Kill his hand? Absolutely not.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:34 PM   #16
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

There's very little a person can do that should cause their hand to be killed. Handed a rack and told to come back tomorrow/in a week/in a month/never is about as bad as it gets.

I don't think that "Don't be shy" on it's own meets the level you'd need for an insta ban. Though "betting your pair" in a multi way would be enough to get a warning and "Don't be shy" after that might be enough to hand him a rack.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:56 PM   #17
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

I am admittedly too perturbed by the incidents, and having talked to other people my best strategy is to cope as best I can. I have been talking to other floor people and did register a complaint. He does not in my opinion pre-arrange collusion but does use table talk in this way with annoying frequency.

Also the attitude that we govern ourselves is a lone floor person and not representative of the cardroom which is in the mw.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:38 PM   #18
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

IMHO, in a casino/B&M setting, it's poor etiquette. Repeat offender, if warned by the floor multiple times, then escalate to a penalty. If this is the floor's first visit, then expect a slap on the wrist at best.

Heads up, I'm not too concerned with table talk. It's usually permitted, and my minor gripe is the time it adds. As I play low limit, no timed rake, it's not really much of a financial deal.

When 2+ players are involved, there shouldn't be talking about the hands or action, other than to ask or point out where the action is.


Home game, I'm guilty of the more than occasional "come on in, the water is fine" comments. Never with the intent to manipulate players to my advantage, just a social comment. Seems along the lines of "don't be shy", encouraging at least a call I suppose.


With the floors comment, it sounds like you need to adapt to the accepted culture of the game, or find a different game.
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:33 PM   #19
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

I have talked to management and I am hoping it will improve. Some of the bum humor that the clown uses could have multiple connotations, but I don't find him to be dangerous. Though an out of towner might not get that impression. It is hard to know what he means about taking people out to the dumpster. I don't find the clown to be sinister, but rather a loud mouth with no boundaries and an ego that allows him to make up ridiculous lies and perhaps believe them. It would not 100% shock me though if he knocks over a gas station someday in a clown mask like he jokes about, though I would be surprised, like 95% surprised.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:52 AM   #20
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Everything's pretty much nailed here. As I've indicated before when it comes to higher stake games .. and this one being a lower volume 'non-standard' game beyond that ... that the players get much more flexibility in the game.

Unfortunately in these cases the focus can turn much more so on the complaining player than the offender. Poor etiquette and marginal commentary can make the game uncomfortable for some, which is too bad when you spread a game that already has a diminished/limited player pool. GL
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:58 PM   #21
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
I disagree with suit, when the hand is multi-way no one should be talking about the hand at all, including making cutesy comments like that.
We are talking about him saying "don't be shy". What is that going to influence? Now if he were saying "bump it up." Then we have a problem.

Don't be shy is the equivalent of raising pre to 3BBs and having 6 callers and then someone says "everyone else is calling". Should you say it? Probably not. Does anyone care. No. Don't be shy is harmless table talk IMO. Not even borderline.

The issue seems to be that this guy is continually doing this (I assume worse things than "don't be shy") and management should have a word with him if it really is overboard.
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:00 PM   #22
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Honestly, sounds like a good game. Seems like the clown is giving away info about his hand. And if he's doing it all the time, then just use it against him.

Welcome to live poker btw, if you have no people skills, don't blame it on your opponents.
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:02 PM   #23
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

I would've called the floor and wanted pokerponcho banned for creating a hostile nofunzone environment.

Then, afterward, would've made a comment EVERY HAND he played in, since this apparently tilts the bejesus out of him.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:24 AM   #24
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suit View Post
Don't be shy is the equivalent of raising pre to 3BBs and having 6 callers and then someone says "everyone else is calling". Should you say it? Probably not. Does anyone care. No. Don't be shy is harmless table talk IMO. Not even borderline.
Yeah. I understand and agree with the spirit of why someone would be upset over it, but the whole "don't be shy" thing is as harmless as someone saying "Water's warm" to the small blind contemplating a call in your 6-caller situation. It's just so minor and it's never going to stop.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:49 AM   #25
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Re: Clarification of the Influencing Action Rule

I mean you have a disconnect between what should happen and what reality allows. Should he be saying stuff like this. no. Is it realistic that anything can happen to stop it. No. sometimes in life you just got to find ways to deal with ****ty people and not expect the world (in this case the casino/floors cause they don't give a ****) to always deal with it the way they should
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