Yes, that's completely different. Without adding that info, your 100% estimate is actually more like 1%.

It's short-sighted and tacky, much like talking about strategy at the table. I am all about +EV, and looking out for #1, but tapping the tank is not how I conduct myself. I'd hesitate to call it unfair or scummy because it's entirely within the rules, which is the only way to judge such things, imho.

Eh, slow rolling and needling fish is well within the rules also, but I don't think it's a good idea in the long run.

I am splitting hairs, but I'm sticking with "tacky and shortsighted". Otherwise I agree, and almost invariably the slowrollers are more prone to emotional instability, and I'd guess them to be more fragile, and will take bad beats more personally.

I guess I'll try to explain it one more time. For the record I can probably count on my fingers the times in the last ten years I've chopped with someone. As I said before, I don't chop. Because good players don't ask other good players to chop. I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding I don't ever make it clear to someone I'm not chopping because they're bad. I simply tell them I don't chop with anyone. And guess what they're never going see to me chopping with anyone.

All I ever said if that randomly if some good player offered me the good side of chop, I'd take it and you should too

If you're good I'll chop with you but if you're good you wouldn't ask. So sorry, I play

I think you don't give your opponent credit enough for reading between the lines. If someone did see you chop with someone, and not chop with them, I'd think they'd read between the lines. That's what I'm saying. Though as you say you are basically a non-chopper, except you'd take a favourable non-chop if the opportunity came about. How do you know the pro who offers a chop didn't glance first?

Back to the main question, I think it's fine, and good that he tells you ahead of time. Why should s/he be expected to chop against their interests?

Because the decision to chop to his right has nothing to do with being able to chop to his left.

Basically he is now saying -"I think this guy is screwing me, so I'm going to pass it on and screw you". Now I'm the one who has to play left and chop right, unless I want to be a jerk also (which I don't want to be). If someone wants to be a "chopper", he should just accept that sometimes he will not get the best of the situation, as I do. If he and I had happened to be in each other's places, I wouldn't have screwed him, I would have just lived with the situation. Most players do not like someone who is a "situational" chopper anymore than they like someone who looks down at pocket aces and decides they don't want to chop this time. You just said you don't approve of ZOMG's situational chopping ethic; the original situation is very similar, so I'm quite surprised to see you say you think it's fine.

To be clear though, I would not say ZOMG's acting unethically. Rules are rules. If it was some kind of soft-play arrangement, that's different. But chopping isn't soft-playing in almost all instances. And also, ZOMG says it was like less than ten times in ten years. All things being equal, I can quite frankly live with that.

But, the difference between the two scenarios is this. ZOMG has an inconsistency. The guy who's credo is, "I chop assuming the guy on the left chops" is not inconsistent in his reasoning at all. That's the difference. To me, it is a significant difference. It's not an angle or unethical if all do is what the guy next to you does. S/he probably should explain it that way instead of springing his chop policy on you, and actually say that instead of like this, "I chop [ .... wait for it .... if the guy next to me does, the one on the left ]." But, as long as it's consistent, and s/he's sincere, what's the problem?

As I said, the problem in my mind is that you're pushing your problem over on the next guy. If everyone did this, then one "non-chopper" at the table would mean no one at the table could chop, a situation I think most "choppers" would not be in favor of.

How is it that there are like 10 people arguing and I can't find a single person I agree with enough to join their side?

Chopping is not a fundamental right. You get to do it sometimes and you don't sometimes. You get to control it sometimes and you don't sometimes. It's probably best classified as minor collusion but the biggest loser is the house so unless they complain, really, it's about two grownups communicating their intents clearly and taking the intersection of their desires.

You can offer any kind of selective chop you want. Some people develop a code where they complete and check it down if they both have jackpot hands. Some people will chop with strong players and play weak players. Some will chop 6-handed but play 5-handed. The popularity of such moves can be debated but whether one should be allowed to do it is unquestioned. Again, just make clear what you want and stop relying on unspoken "rules."

If you can't figure out how to tell if someone looked before they offered you a chop, I don't know how you manage to get to the casino with fully tied shoelaces. One method that works for me is to ask/tell before the action is on SB. But if you're really that scared of being branded as a beta cuck if you open your mouth to let out a few squeaks, use this guide: people in loose games tend to chop. So if your opponent is selectively chopping his bad hands, you will either find out very quickly (because a tight game has lots of BvB battles and you shouldn't be chopping anyway) or it won't matter (because the issue just won't come up very often in loose games and you should be chopping anyway). If you game start at a new casino and draw the SB and first hand it's folded to you and it turns out the BB is a selective chopper and dicked you out of a BB, PM me and I'll refund you the money in return for my horrible advice.

Sometimes I really like what you post Calli and it makes me forgive you for when you troll me*

Hmm I don't think I'm a bad player but I do chop because not chopping with always-chop recs gives off a very bloodthirsty vibe.

The goal of playing poker is to win other people's chips. Why do think other players don't understand this?

+1

Because some of them often check it down when it is headsup with someone they like?

I have to relax my brain a little bit inbetween hands. The level of vigilence to "always be watching" is just too taxing. And asking is silly because the person is, for the most part, either honest or not honest. The dishonest will look before not chopping, and if you ask them, asking for an honest response, it tells you nothing. It ain't worth it because constantly watching is just going to tire yourself out.

Even soft play is a strategy to win more chips, though unethical.

I don't like it either, but no way it is a strategy to win more chips. And if someone decides to not bet some of his value hands against me because he likes me, I'm happy to take advantage of that, even though I'm not returning the favor.

There are lots of things people do at the poker table that are not done to win money. For most people playing the game, winning is not the main goal.

They also do it against people they fear

And no one is saying you have to be a dick while doing it

It's probably not his intention to now "screw" you. I would think , he is now in a -ev situation with the player to his left because of position , so he has to balance it back to neutral by not chopping with the player to his right.
This seems ultra nitty, but understandable.

And since chopping is something that is just a courtesy of players , just like running it twice etc.. then he can do whatever he pleases.


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Just had to revive the thread because something I found very funny just happened. I'm utg in a 20/40 game, everyone folds to the blinds. The SB (two to my right) tells the BB he never chops. Next hand the guy to my right tells me that he usually chops but since he can't chop to his right at the table, he won't be chopping to his left either. I sigh and say "ok"...

standard for players to do this. but if you chop at all you get it straightened out before it happens.