Motor City Casino, Detroit, Michigan
Current Bad Beat Jackpot (quads over quads, both must have pp): $824,537.56 Table share only.

Now, most days the wait list can be over 30 players long, and on peak times almost 100.

The play has been reported (and seen by me) as really nitty, where everyone is playing for the BB.

People are now staking players, putting 1 at each table (a process that takes a long time for sure), and having them stay there 24/7 (room at the casino, food, etc...). Players reportedly sleeping at the tables at times, constantly being told to wake up.

For some reason this room is not on Bravo, so unless you call you have no idea what it will be like when you get there (phone first!)

I can only imagine what the scene will be like if this reaches over $1m and the Thanksgiving weekend hits - crazyness!

The other local rooms are surely taking a hit because of this as well, at times a big hit.

Is this good for the game? Some players hate going there now, especially the grinders, they arent making any money, no action.

Also, would it be better if they turned it into a room share?

(apologizes if this should be in a different thread)

This happens alot at casinos I think.

My local casinos recently changed their bad beat (it used to just be aces full of 10s beat) but now it is mostly quad 8s beat too and yes the wait time is just stupid to play it is what it is.

Yes it bad for game

bad for "the game"? which game? Players or house? short or long term?

Supply and demand. If it's good for business, rooms will encourage it. Long lists are not really desirable for rooms usually, but to the extent that they cause more tables to be in action longer, then obviously that is a higher margin for the room in most cases.

If it causes nitty play, then over the long run it may cause players to go elsewhere, particularly after big jackpots are hit and drop down again. Rooms don't generally want big swings up and down, it's hard to staff for. Just like for fast food, consumers like consistency and predictability too.

5 years ago, jackpots were the new big thing. It was hard to compete with other rooms if they had jackpots and you didn't. (This used to be more regional, but I think it's true just about everywhere but some Vegas rooms now.) Nowadays, though, it feels like non-jackpot promotions are considered better, though you still may need both.

I don't think the room cares who the money goes to, so table versus room share shouldn't really matter too much. It's probably better for players to have a room share, because less money goes to tax witholdings in a practical way, and more people get a taste. Not sure if it matters to the room, other than the additional paperwork hassle.

How many tables do they have?

After this thread expect the lists to double

From a business perspective:

I am in corporate finance, years ago worked specifically in hospitality finance (where guest retention and guest repeat trips are priority #1)...and yes, jackpots are bad for rooms.

They create large crests and troughs of player volume that are out of control from management (as opposed to high hand promos which are in direct control and can be used strategically).

These crests and troughs put huge strain on your labor constraints and high variance on quarterly earnings (which nobody wants).

From a players perspective:

Most florida rooms have done away with bbj or reduced them substantially, and player volume is higher than ever. Ive literally watched it happen over the last 5 years. Hard rock had a shared bbj that would approach $1m. Daytona would run a $500/hour high hand promo and have more tables. People want immediate, tangible winnings. Its really that simple.

It also attracts a different kind of player which is great for the game. My gf would nit it up and freak the hell out when she hit a high hand (about once a month). This is what got her into poker.

Its also better because you dont have people literally crapping their pants bc they wont leave the table.

Finally, the single biggest argument i have, is that high hand promo money generally stays in the poker economy. Someone wins $500. Guess what? Thats going straight back into a buy in. Someone wins $300k? Thats never going to be seen again.

I never sit down at a cash game at a casino with any serious thoughts about winning or sharing a BBJ. It is simply too rare to be relevant. So I don't think it hurts anything much. Maybe I am in the minority these days. IDK

Some great points by both dinesh and Avaritia.

Agree with dinesh it tends to be more of a regional thing. We had the BBJ whirlwind here in CO ~5 years ago with several getting into 700-800k range over the course of 2 months. Was definitely the "follow the leader" mentalitly where one room in the area did it then all others followed suit. I'm assuming most of these super high BBJs get subsidized by the casino itself and not purely from BBJ drop, but I could be wrong?

As pointed out above, the wait lists for the lower games (1/2 NL & 2/4 LHE) during this time were astronomical and the play was super nitty if not outright collusion-y. People wanting to limp everything and begging for checkdowns, etc. and berating ppl who wouldn't go along with it.

Not something I'd consciously thought about, but you're right in saying the majority of these giant BBJs likely aren't put back into the poker economy (I'm sure a chunk of some likely get dumped into the pit) versus the tiny high-hand promos which generally go right onto the table.

Don't have experience really with a giant BBJ that causes a frenzy. But the THR lately has very large high hand promotions (500 or even 1000 every half hour). It distorts the game in frustrating ways, but it's attainable to hit.

This is all that you need to know.

So my local room has instituted a policy that as long as you don't have a 'missed blind' button, your stack will get paid. Miss a hand, BBJ hit? No biggie, you're good. Keeps the seats clean (err, cleaner?), at least...

(I'm told, by no one in particular, not room management, at least)

I haven't played cash there in quite some time (last football season, lol) so I don't have current knowledge of how this might impact play. This was told to me by regs at the nightly tournament, no idea if they were straight talking or what...

all bad beats are bad for the longevity of the game... most likely whoever hits that bad beat that money is not coming back to poker.... so it 100s of thousands of dollars out of the poker economy.

Meh, all the players who chase BBJs are losing players. They will go broke chasing the dumb jackpot.

from a player standpoint,
1000 times better than high hand promos'

I don't really like BBJs or any promos in general, but I am curious how / why the games are getting nitty.

Years ago when I would express my opinion that I disliked BBJs, other players both in live games and here on 2+2 would say they were good for the games because they brought in bad players who would call any bets with jackpot eligible starting hands, and stay to the end chasing longshot draws.

I'm curious why you feel this way? High hands at least you have a legit shot at and the money likely stays in the room. BBJ you can't really think you have a shot at and when it's hit the money is usually gone from the room.

Local casino is doing away with BBJ once it hits again and it's mostly because of feedback from the regs that they were tired of paying into a fund that they had nearly zero shot of winning and then the money leaving the room for good.

I applaud management for listening to them.

from management viewpoint Avaritia's post is spot on.

from A player standpoint.
High hand promo's draw a crowd of short stacked nits only there to try for the high hand. They have perfected ways to get the extra money off the table and push/bend/ break rules without any regard for other players.
cheating and collusion become the norm .
they feel they are cheating the house when in reality its you and I they are cheating.
As for the fairytale of how the moneys put back in the game , sure maybe 10-15% of it .
sure players show up more often for the bad beat when it gets high just as a room fills up with $1000 every 30 min promo's then clears out 5 minutes after its over.

Smaller, more frequent wins that hit more players are better than rarer, bigger wins that hit few players. Even if the table share goes to the whole room or whatever, it's better for rooms to have high hand promos, sports promos, aces cracked promos, whatever promos than a BBJ.

That's just my personal opinion but I hope that BBJs are bad for business as well and rooms start to phase them out.

why and how are smaller hits better for you as a player?
lets say once a week you hit a high hand payout for $400 but could have instead made $2000 more in profit by playing real poker instead of HH hunting.
seems to me more $$$ per hour is a better deal.
Bad beat jackpots are typically a side note most rooms ;players don't change play to hunt those.
plus $400 isn't life changing but a $100k is

lets face it avg $15 hr rake from table for BBJ divided by 10 is $1.5 hr from you, I would much rather that go toward a BBJ then High hands.
even doing out the math 1.5 *50=$75 to win $400 = +325 -$1600 =-1275 a week in lost profit

My experience is that HH promos are just free money for someone actually playing poker. People then to limp call or limp fold with any two that have 'potential'. Then one continuation bet and they are done if they didn't hit a hand. Sure, sometimes you lose to something silly, but most of the time their hand is face up.

The BBJ is now up to $835K (notice this only took 1 weekend to move $10K).

This room has 19 tables in it's main area and ... in an almost unprecedented casino move ... they have removed slots from two 'outer' areas to accommodate more players/tables.

Lots of good points here looking at both sides of the equation ..

1) From a regional aspect ... Another casino who only has AAAJJ losing for it's BBJ had an extremely large jackpot ($140K) that has now hit 3-4 times in quick succession ... Their BBJ is now down to 'only' $12K and the traffic in the room is down by 60% or more at the times I check Bravo. This is verification of the ebb and flow of player traffic and stresses the labor side of things in the room.

2) From a regs viewpoint ... I like that it brings in new 'bingo/lottery' players and 'we' don't have to beat up on each other. Adjustments to play? Of course ...

I love the 1/2 players that get on the 2/5 list as well and blow all 3 of their 1/2 bullets in 1 BI since the 2/5 seat came up first.

3) I don't see that the play is that nitty, but I 'never' play 1/2 at this casino so that may not be a fair statement. I also see that the list moves along quite quickly IMO. Where the staff gets it in the rear is dealing with the table changes since players don't want to be in the slot area too long. The main room has free beverages and free food every 1-2 hours while it lasts .. there are no hourly comps in this room.

Bad for the room? Not one like this one IMO ... HUGE player base with 24 hour action. But I would prefer the HHand/splash pot promos better since the cash will probably be not too far away from the very poker table it was won on as suggested.

This BBJ is well over $100K bigger than the next larges one that hit in May 2016. I was one table away and got ZERO!! I think it has hit one time in between these 2 monster jackpots, in November. So it's been at least 10 months since it has hit ... I think promotions should be set up to hit more often.

This same casino has a AAAKK 'mini' jackpot, but it's not a 10% of 'main' payout as it has it's own feeder jackpots. If they would make it a 10%, then the Quad/Quad would stay somewhat lower along the way. It's 'only' $16K today.

Good discussions, moving target of solutions based on room/market size. I think that you either need promos that hit 'a lot' or that doesn't hit at all and you will end up with the same buzz along the way. GL

Seems all rooms are getting rid of the BBJ.
Turning stone is next once it hits. Foxwoods also is done.

Personally I enjoy it but also like the HH promos.

I'm also not a nit who's looking at every angle to save a dollar, so that's also why I don't care

It's definitely bad in that it sucks money out of the poker economy, as the winners are unlikely to dump it all back at the poker table (the pits, maybe...). In my experience, it is very good in the short term when the BBJ gets unusually high. It brings in a lot of players that wouldn't normally play poker or play that often and are bad. I also think it encourages players to play "bad beat" hands for a horrible price. I've definitely seen players cold call a 3 bet with 23s for like 30% of their stack hoping to hit the miracle.

Overall, I'd rather have smaller promos like High Hand every hour, etc. It still brings in some players, but isn't such a drain on the overall economy of the room.

This is a good point. As a player it was frustrating seeing a wait list of 20+ and empty tables without dealers, because management couldn't have known the BBJ would climb and attract all the players who just played wherever the jackpot was highest.

I think it made 1/2 slightly better with people limp/calling any hand that could possibly make a BBJ, but not enough to be worth it.

there seems to be a common misconception that somehow
High hand payouts make it back into the poker community.
Assuming 2+2'ers are winning players ( made the assumption because every post seems to clearly indicate we are)
then money won from HH would never make it onto the felt.

So the big whine is because you have never hit a Bad beat and are jealous of those who have.

This is ridiculous. on multiple levels. First if it where true that everyone here was a winning player that doesn't mean that the whole poker room is filled with 2+2ers. Obviously for there to be winning players there must be losing players. The point is that losing players who win a $100 promotion are a lot more likely to put that $100 back into play then if they win a really large amount. (though many will put some of that large amount back into play ... even if more roundabout .... the guy wins $30K and buys a new car now he doesn't have car payments so he has more money each month for gambling).

Second even among winning players there will be effects. A winning player is going to have losing sessions and if his loses include an extra $100 he won from a high hand promo some of that money is now back in the poker economy.