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Old 09-12-2017, 02:37 AM   #1
Nicholls9
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Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

I'm guessing that this is a pretty simple question for you poker veterans out there, but it came up in a live cash game at a local SoCal casino last weekend.

I was involved in a 3 way pot that got all the way to the river. I had a monster, with 99 in the pocket and a board of 92527 rainbow. The pot was about $400 in a $2-3 NLH game. I am first to act and go all-in for my last $180. Next guy tanks for a bit, tries to talk me up, but folds. Guy to my right also tries to talk me up but I say nothing. He says he has a deuce, can't put me on a hand, says maybe I have an overpair, etc.

Here's what I objected to - he asks the other guy who was in the hand (now folded) "who was the preflop raiser?"

I said - "whoa man, you can't ask that" and asked the dealer to clarify, thinking he would back me up.

Dealer looks uninterested and player then says "sorry" and nobody answers him. He ends up calling with 23 so I won a huge pot but I wanted to know if he was allowed to ask that question and why the dealer did nothing.
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Old 09-12-2017, 04:28 AM   #2
chillrob
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

It's at least bad poker etiquette to ask that question of another player, though I'm not sure of a specific rule against it. It could possibly fall under the "one player per hand" rule, as he is indirectly asking another player for advice.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:10 AM   #3
dinesh
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

As rob mentioned, there is no specific rule in either RRoP or TDA about table talk, let alone specific things like asking about action in prior streets. The closest they get is:
Quote:
The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
[...]
Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
and
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62: No Disclosure
Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:
Disclose contents of live or folded hands, Advise or criticize play at any time, Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled. One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.
In general, most floors here agree that dealers or floors are permitted to answer questions about the rules of the room, even if doing so might be considered to be something that "affects the action", as long as the question is being asked by the player whose turn it currently is. Dealers (and players) are permitted to answer questions about how the action proceeded on the current street, particularly if oversized chips or other context issues make it difficult to ascertain based just on chips across the line. But no one should be asking, or particularly answering, questions about action on previous streets.

The dealer keeping quiet is perhaps the smallest issue in what you described. Your response seems to have answered the question, and player apologized, so whatever. Mention it to a floor later if you want.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:55 AM   #4
answer20
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

1) There shouldn't be 'any' table talk when multi-way ... even by the player who is facing action. (Possibly influencing action by remaining players)
2) Players shouldn't be asking other players for information ..
3) The Dealer should only answer questions about the current street ..

Table talk is always interesting, each room typically has it limit. And as is the case for many of my comments, it's allowed more at the higher stakes than lower. GL
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:14 AM   #5
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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1) There shouldn't be 'any' table talk when multi-way ... even by the player who is facing action. (Possibly influencing action by remaining players)
It doesn't matter that the hand was multiway to the river. At the time the player asked the (potentially inappropriate) question, the hand was heads-up between him and hero. There's no difference between him asking the third player that went to the river and somebody else who folded preflop.

I agree it's at least bad etiquette to ask that question but am not sure if it's really a OPTAH violation.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:04 AM   #6
Didace
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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Originally Posted by Nicholls9 View Post
I said - "whoa man, you can't ask that" and asked the dealer to clarify, thinking he would back me up.
Why would you do that?
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:42 AM   #7
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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Originally Posted by Nicholls9 View Post
I am first to act and go all-in for my last $180. Next guy tanks for a bit, tries to talk me up, but folds. Guy to my right also tries to talk me up but I say nothing.

Here's what I objected to - he asks the other guy who was in the hand (now folded) "who was the preflop raiser?"
In my #1 I was referring to 'next guy' talking him up ... not 'guy to my right'. I love HU table talk but also respect the aspects of multi-way action. I don't want 'guy to my right' to get the benefits of 'next guy' trying to talk to me before either acts.

Yes, the inappropriate question does come HU, but perhaps the Dealer not stepping in during the original talking opens the door for V to press his luck with more inappropriate table talk.

I love table talk and it's room/table and Dealer dependent. GL
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:44 PM   #8
Shai Hulud
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

Second guy shouldn't be allowed to talk you up while it's multiway.

Typically the dealer is not allowed to answer questions about what happened on a previous street. I don't know about asking a player not in the hand. Seems wrong.

I mean there's not much difference in asking who the pfr was vs. asking exactly how the action went.

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Old 09-12-2017, 02:13 PM   #9
NickMPK
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

Unless the room has an absolute rule against all table talk, I'm not sure what rule would prevent a player in a heads-up hand from asking that questions. What would possibly be against the rules is someone not in the hand answering.
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Old 09-12-2017, 02:23 PM   #10
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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Unless the room has an absolute rule against all table talk, I'm not sure what rule would prevent a player in a heads-up hand from asking that questions. What would possibly be against the rules is someone not in the hand answering.
He can ask all he wants, but I think looking directly at (baiting) another player and/or expecting an answer to the question is where it crosses the line and becomes more of an angle shot. GL
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Old 09-12-2017, 03:16 PM   #11
Suit
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

The rule is one player to a hand. You cannot ask another player to help you just the same way you cannot give the help to another player. They both fall into the same rule. He is asking another player to help him and that is a violation in my book and the dealer should have said something. You cannot simply wait for the other player to answer the question before you qualify it as breaking the rule. It would be too late at that point.
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Old 09-12-2017, 05:23 PM   #12
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

Agreed with above three handed players need to shut the hell up. Definitely 1 player to a hand in this case. In general I think dealers and floor both need to do a better job controlling the action especially three way with big river action. I can't count how much money I've lost from last position acting out of turn in this particular circumstance. And dealers don't mention a thing. They don't seem to get the difference between acting out of turn in a spot like this vs. preflop limping...
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:02 PM   #13
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

In a heads up situation the asking of the question by the player is not in and of itself problematic.... if a player is asking himself outloud I would have no real issue with it.

BUT the problem is that someone is likely to answer the question and the answering of the question is the problem. So if a player asks such a question in a context and situation where he is not going to be answered I do not object to the question. But in the situation where he may get an answer I have a problem with him asking it.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:07 AM   #14
Suit
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
So if a player asks such a question in a context and situation where he is not going to be answered I do not object to the question. But in the situation where he may get an answer I have a problem with him asking it.
What situation/context do you think the chances are above 50% that he doesn't get an answer? I can't think of any. Every table has the hero that wants to be first to prove he was paying attention and can answer this question.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:48 AM   #15
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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What situation/context do you think the chances are above 50% that he doesn't get an answer? I can't think of any. Every table has the hero that wants to be first to prove he was paying attention and can answer this question.
sometimes its clear the player is just thinking out loud a.... asking himself the question. In OP we are told he directed the question to a specific player. There are players who I know aren't going to answer the question. You may feel that the question is going to get answered often, but I think there are plenty of circumstances where it is not likely to be answered.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:34 PM   #16
TDMarathon86
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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Originally Posted by Suit View Post
What situation/context do you think the chances are above 50% that he doesn't get an answer? I can't think of any. Every table has the hero that wants to be first to prove he was paying attention and can answer this question.
I agree with your sentiment here. At least in the rooms near me, at lower limits, I would venture that this question will get answered 90% of the time, with the breakdown probably being 80% of the time by somebody who is folded and 10% of the time by hero himself.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:18 PM   #17
Playbig2000
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

ODTAH applies, although there is always one degenerate who will call out the answer to show everyone how good he is. I don't think this is one of those rules that you should be going crazy over though.

I've also seen dealers remain quiet when asked but did not intervene when other players volunteered the information.
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:16 PM   #18
TS2
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

even the dealer isnt allowed to answer that question optah
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:34 PM   #19
GoneFishing
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

More important lesson: dealer in $2/3 NLHE game in SoCal room is almost always uninterested
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:38 PM   #20
NickMPK
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

Answering the question would indeed violate OPTAH. But generally speaking, violations of OPTAH involving completely public information are pretty innocuous, and if I were in OP's position, I can't imagine I would raise a stink over this.
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:28 PM   #21
JoseJohnnyJimJack
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Re: Basic Table Talk Question - Asking about pre-flop raiser 3 handed

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Originally Posted by Didace View Post
Why would you do that?
Why not? It made hero look like he didn't want it to be known that he might've been the preflop raiser with what villain thought was an overpair. It helped get him the call.
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