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Old 05-11-2017, 02:19 PM   #26
DoTheMath
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

Re: unintentional checks due to nervous movement - been there, done that. Didn't get the T-shirt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Sitting on my hands isn't a bad idea except my hands would go numb after a while.
Try sticking your thumbs in your belt/waistband, if you can do that without elbowing the players on either side of you. Or wear braces/suspenders and stick your thumbs behind them. Or even hang on to your shirt collar or hood.

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
I guess I'll just try to keep them behind the rail and/or tell each dealer to only honor verbal checks from me.
I'm not sure every dealer will honour that. Maybe ask the floor before you are seated when you first arrive at a new casino.

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
I guess I'm just that lucky to encounter such a weirdo when just starting, lol. And no, he didn't do this to other players, though I think he would have.
He's a vampire. Eat garlic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
...while he was there we ended up in I think four pots heads up and he did the same thing every time. Except, all but the first time I just pulled up my hoodie and looked away. He still did his staring and time-out thing, but I can't imagine he was able to get any information.
If you are not comfortable with one of the more interactive responses that have been suggested ITT, this may very well be the best play.

Basically, all the issues you raised are typical newbie things. I understand how they might be a bigger thing for you than for more neurotypical players, but I actually think your posts indicate you are adapting quickly and well. I think you'll make a killing, but I'll wish you good luck at the tables anyway.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:14 PM   #27
Shai Hulud
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
No offense, but if you're still so uncomfortable at live poker I'd consider pretty strongly putting a lot more hours in before moving to play full time. Just because you have the poker skills to beat live poker does not mean you have the other skills needed to do it, or the temperament necessary to do it day-in day-out for a living.
This sounds like good advice at first glance, but think about what you're saying. If I don't have the temperament to handle playing live poker, do you think I could handle most traditional jobs, interacting with people constantly in a position of responsibility? The other jobs I've had are far, far worse than poker as far as stress and dealing with other people. The only time I was remotely stressed while playing was right when I sat down and when the weird kid was staring me down, but even that's better than teaching college classes, where on a typical day I'd have about a hundred kids staring at me, not to mention the constant whining about grades...

Trust me, I've thought about it. A lot. And planned for it more than I'd wager 99% of players do. Made a thread about it here and posted in a few others asking numerous questions, in addition to tons of other research, studying, and planning. Sure, it might not work out, but for me it's less of a risk than moving somewhere for a job. At least I can't get fired from poker. You're probably not aware of this, but roughly 90% of people with Aspergers are unemployed, and most who are employed are underemployed. There are good reasons for this, having more to do with the employer and other colleagues' expectations of "normal" social behavior than failing to meet job standards.

But if it makes you feel better, before I move I will have played at least two more days at Winstar, and six days in Tampa. I can play about 10 hours a day, so I'll have had 100+ hours of practice before I'm at the point of no return. If I have an epiphany and discover I hate grinding, I'll reevaluate. But from where I live (3+ hours from nearest casino), it's not practical to put in hundreds of hours of practice before moving. Plus, I need a source of income. I've saved money that should last a little over a year for living expenses, plus over $11000 bankroll. All my winnings will go straight on top of my bankroll until the first year is up. So my risk of ruin is very low, and I have mathematics and computer science degrees I can fall back on if it doesn't work out, but I think it's very unlikely.

What are the "other skills" you think I don't have?

@waldoworld - Thanks for clearing that up about the rules at Winstar. Also good advice about the sunglasses, except I wear glasses so they'd need to fit over them. Ski goggles...I think that's the look

@DoTheMath - I appreciate the advice but more than that someone who hasn't just concluded "whoa you had some issues during your first five hours of play, so live poker probably won't work out for you." Thanks for the boost of confidence.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:11 AM   #28
deerdeerdeer
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

Just be like this and you'll be making money in no time...

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Old 05-13-2017, 07:15 AM   #29
Shai Hulud
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

I don't get it.
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:52 AM   #30
Garick
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

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I could probably bang my head against the rail and they'd call it a check.
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Old 05-13-2017, 02:24 PM   #31
Iuomo
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

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Originally Posted by Rawlz517 View Post
Situation #1 - 100% on you. Looking away from the table while you're in a hand is never a good idea.

Situation #2 - Could easily have been ruled a check. Again this is completely on you. Good for the dealer to confirm, but sometimes your motion is going to look like a clear check to the dealer. Think of how slow the game would be if every time somebody checked, the dealer asked for confirmation.

If not fidgeting is "borderline impossible", I'm not sure what to tell you other than maybe keep your hands below the table at all times unless you're going to bet.

Situation #3 - This is an uncommon rule from my experience. Usually, dealers are not allowed to answer questions about a previous street, but asking about the current street is fine. If this is the house rule, you're just going to have to live with it and do a better job of following the action yourself.

Not to be rude, but the first three situations all involve you not paying attention. You're playing with your own money, so you may want to stop doing that.

Situation #4 - Welcome to live poker - people are weird. Politely ask him not to invade your personal space. If that doesn't work, ask the dealer if what he's doing is allowed.

My thoughts precisely.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:32 PM   #32
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

Live poker can be annoying. It's not going to change. Maybe you can learn and adapt to it's odd events and players after a while just fine, likely you will. or if you can't " Maybe poker is just not your game , Shai"

Last edited by Bene Gesserit; 05-13-2017 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:19 PM   #33
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

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#4 is something anyone would find creepy and annoying. I'd either move or laugh and say something like "That staring thing is weird, man! What are you doing?"
I'd just hold up a stick of gum with a smile. This isn't Matt Damon from Rounders doing the soul read, the is Matt Damon the actor trying to play poker. We want this guy in our game all day.

I saw someone above mentioned the kiss. Great response, "Is this the point where you buy me dinner before we make out"? I don't know, screwing with people is far more fun than getting angry.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:34 PM   #34
Shai Hulud
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

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Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
Live poker can be annoying. It's not going to change. Maybe you can learn and adapt to it's odd events and players after a while just fine, likely you will. or if you can't " Maybe poker is just not your game , Shai"
Greetings fellow Dune fan.

I think I will adapt fine. What some people don't seem to get (not saying you're one of them) is that I can run into social problems anywhere. Besides, I can't be the only poker player with Aspergers...I have seen tournament players on TV I am about 90% certain fall somewhere on the spectrum. Poker is actually one of the easier "careers" for us, as play is mostly analytical and not requiring a ton of social interaction. I mean yeah, you have to sit next to people but I'm fine with that. I'm fine chatting with people too. Some of them find me weird but that's their issue. The point is most awkward social interaction I can choose to avoid, which is not the case in most traditional jobs. I ran into much worse problems in graduate school, and I am just horrific in job interviews. That's not why I want to play poker (I love the game), but it does convince me it's a good decision.

What I described in Situation 4 seems kind of aberrational, but if it happens again I'll be better prepared, and eventually that kind of thing won't bother me at all.

@PotLuckNeeded

I was a little irritated, but the player didn't make me angry so much as just very uncomfortable. Nails on a chalkboard might be an appropriate analogy. Once I pulled up and tightened my hood I was happy to have him at my table, but I think some of these other suggestions are better, like yours, maybe embarrassing him so he desists with the staring. Or just saying something like "You're freaking me out bro" with a chuckle might be enough. I don't mind playing with my hoodie up but I'm aware of the stereotype this image conveys, and that a lot of 2+2ers think anyone with the tightened hoodie look is an idiot.

I still don't get the picture of the ape.

Last edited by Shai Hulud; 05-13-2017 at 06:42 PM. Reason: because
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:19 PM   #35
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
... Poker is actually one of the easier "careers" for us, as play is mostly analytical and not requiring a ton of social interaction....

I was a little irritated, but the player didn't make me angry so much as just very uncomfortable...
Play is mostly analytical, but you do have to play different players differently. This requires forming an idea of how they play (which is mostly analytical)(no HUD's in live games), but also requires "reading" them in the moment, and in relation to past hands in the game. (I am not talking about blatant "tells", but about comments, body language, tone of voice, etc.) I imagine that this will be harder for you. OTOH, a lot of Asperger's people are extraordinarily good at pure analysis.
Live poker is definitely populated by some very strange types, and you will run into them occasionally. You do need not to be too surprised or put off when you encounter them. This will probably come with experience. The particular behavior you cited is fairly extreme (and almost certainly came from an inexperienced player). Staring at another player is very common, but you could certainly could have asked the guy to back off from physically invading your space (and I think most dealers and floors would support this, if the behavior was as you cite). This is sort of like asking someone to "square up" and to sit in front of their own spot. Or you could have simply changed seats or tables. you could have either changed seats or tables.
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Old 05-16-2017, 12:40 PM   #36
Aurora Tom
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

I have a 14-year old son with Asperger's and I have read this thread wondering how he would be able to handle a poker table atmosphere when he's old enough. Clearly there are many different facets on the spectrum, but for my son, I would expect that the player staring at him would just make him laugh and it probably wouldn't be a tell. He has no fear at all (except for mosquitos) and also doesn't much care about what other people think of him.
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:33 PM   #37
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

The "I can't tell you who raised" rule is something that is stupid if it is true.

Because you could just waste everyone's time and ask
'"How much did the 1 seat bet?" "How much did the 2 seat bet?" etc until you've gotten everyone at the table.

And since that is a legal question, once you figure out how much everyone bet then all of a sudden you know who raised.
I think it's kind of ridiculous to imply that a dealer can't tell you who raised on this street
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:52 PM   #38
Shai Hulud
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Re: Ambiguous checks and other mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora Tom View Post
I have a 14-year old son with Asperger's and I have read this thread wondering how he would be able to handle a poker table atmosphere when he's old enough. Clearly there are many different facets on the spectrum, but for my son, I would expect that the player staring at him would just make him laugh and it probably wouldn't be a tell. He has no fear at all (except for mosquitos) and also doesn't much care about what other people think of him.
I have met a lot of people on the autistic spectrum (at least two dozen I know are on it) and about as many I suspect have Aspergers but am unsure.

We all have common traits but there's also a great deal of variance from person to person as far as symptoms, as I'm sure you're aware. Like your son, I have no fear of most things people are scared of, with the big exception of social interactions. I also don't care what people think of me, unless it's someone I admire or respect.

Most of the higher-functioning autistic and Aspergers people I've met could be taught to play poker, but only if they're interested in strategic games. I'm sure you know this as well, but we tend to latch on to 2 or 3 interests (sometimes one) and with everything else you might as well be talking about your favorite shade of paint. For me, my interests are poker, computers, and sci-fi/fantasy. Often I lose interest in one of these for a while but come back to it. All the other things people are usually interested in like sports, socializing, drinking at bars, etc., I just don't care at all. And I'm relatively broad for someone on the spectrum. I've met people interested in nothing but comic books, or I remember one guy who really liked anime, and I tried talking to him about some anime I liked, but it was a different type of anime, so, zero interest. All he liked was this very specific subgenre of anime.

So I think the main requirements for whether someone on the spectrum can play poker are

a) is the individual intelligent enough to be taught the analytical side of poker? I think most Aspies are, but I've met some autistics who definitely are not.

b) can the individual handle the social aspects without overwhelming anxiety or other "inappropriate" reactions? Again, I think most Aspies can, but it may take much longer for the anxiety or laughing etc. to go away compared to a neurotypical, many of whom would never have such issues to begin with.

c) most important, is the individual interested in poker or similar activities? For me, before I was aware of poker, I was interested in skill and strategy games like chess and Risk, and when I started playing poker online, that became my primary game of interest and has remained so.

Feel free to PM me with any questions you have about playing poker with Aspergers.

Hope this was at least somewhat helpful

@iraisetoomuch

Yeah, I got a definitive response from WaldoWorld and the dealer was definitely misinterpreting the rule. At Winstar you can ask who raised on the current street, but not every dealer knows this.
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