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Old 02-18-2019, 09:07 AM   #1
gogetter76
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Your opinions on this hand

1-2 NL.....$66 in the pot at showdown i turn up pocket 4's....villian slow rolling....shows a 3, with a 3 on the board and turns it faceup. Slow rolls the other card, flashes it to me a 9 to complete a straight, in a forward motion towards the dealer throws it facedown
A player not in the hand asked to see it and dealer flips it over and dealer does and says he wins.I say no and ask for the floor.
What say you?
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:16 AM   #2
Defarse
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Did villian not know he had the winning hand?
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:28 AM   #3
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

As described, and based on the typical IWTSYH ruleset in a room, no, you should win.

In order for his hand to win he had to have fully tabled his hand (both cards face up and visible on the table, not just flashing one to you), OR you had to have made the request to see his hand, not one of the other players in the hand.

Having said the above, there is a bias towards pushing the pot to the best hand at showdown. If there is any ambiguity about whether he tabled his hand while he was doing all his flipping and flashing, they might award him the pot as a result. Would be up to the floor to decide whether it was tabled or not.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:48 AM   #4
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
As described, and based on the typical IWTSYH ruleset in a room, no, you should win.

In order for his hand to win he had to have fully tabled his hand (both cards face up and visible on the table, not just flashing one to you), OR you had to have made the request to see his hand, not one of the other players in the hand.
That’s the usual way to handle a situation where a player discarded a hand and the dealer takes over possession of the cards.

But since OP didn’t mention any dealer involvement before the request to see the hand, we don’t really know where the card is located right now and if the dealer was about to muck it. If the card moved forward but is still in a spot where the player could easily table it himself, should other players (not involved in the hand) be able to effectively kill it by demanding to see the card?

We all know the situation where a player takes way too long to decide if he wants to show or not, often moving the cards forward in that process. I shouldn’t be able to kill the hand by demanding to see it to get my buddy the pot.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:51 AM   #5
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Typically only the Players 'in' the Showdown can make a hand live with their request to have it tabled 'for all to see'. Since neither Player in the Showdown, being OP and V, asked to have the card tabled then the pot goes to Hero mainly because he's the only one with a 'live' hand.

Had the other Player given the V a big elbow and pointed at the card prompting the V to ask to see it, then you have a technically correct tabling of the hand with some outside influence.

That's not to say (as above) that a ruling might go in the V's favor when adding in other circumstances ... or that the Floor just isn't fully aware of the rule. GL
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:27 AM   #6
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
That’s the usual way to handle a situation where a player discarded a hand and the dealer takes over possession of the cards.

But since OP didn’t mention any dealer involvement before the request to see the hand, we don’t really know where the card is located right now and if the dealer was about to muck it.
A fair point, but we do know where the card was when it was flipped over - in the dealer's hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gogetter76 View Post
A player not in the hand asked to see it and dealer flips it over and dealer does and says he wins.
So either the dealer already had it, or the player had released it and did not grab it back before the dealer picked it up and tabled it as a result of a IWTSTH request. Either way, hand is dead, by the typical rules.

If you don't want another player's action to kill your hand, your plan is simple: don't discard it forward, facedown, at showdown. Or be faster than the dealer to grab it back and table it if someone else does make a IWTSTH request.

Last edited by dinesh; 02-18-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:29 AM   #7
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
Typically only the Players 'in' the Showdown can make a hand live with their request to have it tabled 'for all to see'.
Please stop saying this, it is not correct. It may be the rule in your rooms, but it is not typical.

Typically, only the player with the winning hand can make a hand live by requesting to see it. No other player's request (whether in the showdown or not) can make the hand live.

RRoP:
Quote:
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:08 PM   #8
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Please stop saying this, it is not correct. It may be the rule in your rooms, but it is not typical.
Thank you for asking nicely .... But ...
1) TDA is way more typical for cash play these days than Roberts
2) TDA 18

What is the difference between 'winning' and 'in Showdown'?

Player A shoves, Player B & C call
Player C shows King High Flush 'out of turn'
Player A attempts to muck, but Player B says IWTSTH

- So Player B isn't winning ... yet ... and maybe not at all, but Player A was supposed to show first and Player B wants to see the hand he paid for.
- So you're saying that if Player B asks to see the hand it's dead (because he's not winning), but if Player C asked to see the hand it's now live (because he's 'currently' winning the Showdown)?

Asking to see a hand is an 'in the moment' event since Dealers are typically trained to muck any hand that heads their way asap. We shouldn't have to stop to determine who's winning to judge the impact of the request. If you have cards, you're in the Showdown and you can make any other hand in the Showdown live upon request (if you paid to see it .. and in turn?).

If a 'Showdown' Player has released their cards into the muck, they don't have a live hand ... therefore are no long 'in' the Showdown when making the request and I would not consider the hand live. I would treat that Player as any other Player who had previously folded their hand.

So what 'winning' suggests in my case would be that the Dealer needs to hold Player A's cards face down until Player B and C complete the Showdown and if Player B shows an Ace high flush then Player A's hand is live, but if Player B shows a Queen high flush then Player A's hand is dead since Player B isn't the current winner ... By the way Player A's hand is shown to be a sneaky straight flush that he didn't know he had. GL

PS .. TDA #18 (Please show me the word winning here ... I can find Showdown) What TDA does not do is clarify if 'any' requested hand is live or not, which is a huge oversight on their part and certainly doesn't help my part of the comments here. My assumption is that 'any' correctly (within the rules) tabled hand should be considered live and therefore it's not really necessary to reiterate that fact within a specific rule.

A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.
B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to see the last aggressor’s hand on request (“the hand they paid to see”) provided the caller tabled or retains his or her cards. TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if there was no river bet.


I think both rules might be slightly incomplete, but I'm certainly not going to stop saying something that's right there in front of us as a rule.

OP makes no reference to a River bet, so Players must show in turn or the Floor needs to be called to enforce showing in turn. My opinion is that any request to see an attempted 'in turn' muck should make the hand live.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:35 PM   #9
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

I don't agree that TDA has supplanted RRoP for cash games, but it is probably true that it is gaining ground in some regions. For the record, every room I regularly play in (4 of them, all the largest/best run in their regions, in PA, Vegas, and CA) uses a variant of RRoP, not TDA for cash games, afaik. I believe the Borgata does as well, but I haven't been there in several years so I won't include it here.

Furthermore, your post handwaves away all the many ways that the hand as described likely (but not certainly) doesn't fit into the TDA rule 18 anyway. But let's proceed as if it does. (i.e. villain was last aggressor on river but OP still showed first OOT, and third player who made IWTSTH request somehow still had cards or had also tabled his hand even though OP makes no mention of this.)

As you note:
* TDA 18 governs who is ELIGIBLE to make an IWTSTH request
* It says nothing about whether the hand is live once exposed
* This is a glaring oversight which ought to be corrected

Given all the above, it's hard to use this rule to support your claim. In the absence of a clear rule, a TD could probably go either way, though my belief is that most would fall on the "dead hand" side. I guess you disagree.

In the future, how about we agree that if you make this claim you also say "if using TDA rules for cash games, and assuming that any hand exposed because of IWTSTH is also ruled live" and I will say "using RRoP"? I wouldn't have any problem with that, though I would probably also clarify that RRoP rules are vastly different and more clear.

As for the difference between "winning" and "at showdown", that seems obvious to me. It is an interesting exercise to figure out what happens if a player who has a hand still but hasn't yet tabled makes a request, but it's easily solvable. If they later table and would be the winner except for the requested hand, the hand is live and beats them. If they were not the winner other than the requested hand, the hand is dead. If, somehow, no one else shows except the requested hand, the requested hand wins by default. Not knowing whether the hand will be live or not has no real impact on when the dealer can table the requested hand (immediately) or cause any issues with game theory or the order in which other players can or will be forced to show their hands (in order).

All your other talk about being "in the moment" and how you think things should be is fine, but is just opinion which is in direct contradiction to the actual RRoP rule about how IWTSTH works. As it happens, my personal opinion agrees with you in part, that IWTSTH is dumb and causes problems, but my solution is to just disallow it completely. Problem solved.

ETA:

There are other rules in TDA which might support your contention that once the hand is tabled, it is live, regardless of how it came to be tabled, though none are clearly supportive since both refer to a player tabling his (own) hand:

Quote:
13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand

B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.

14: Live Cards at Showdown

Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

Last edited by dinesh; 02-18-2019 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 02-18-2019, 01:41 PM   #10
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
As described, and based on the typical IWTSYH ruleset in a room, no, you should win.

In order for his hand to win he had to have fully tabled his hand (both cards face up and visible on the table, not just flashing one to you), OR you had to have made the request to see his hand, not one of the other players in the hand.

Having said the above, there is a bias towards pushing the pot to the best hand at showdown. If there is any ambiguity about whether he tabled his hand while he was doing all his flipping and flashing, they might award him the pot as a result. Would be up to the floor to decide whether it was tabled or not.
Before all 9 people at the table start talking to floor, it is important to ask him the salient question before the details of the hand cloud the issue. 'Player x discarded his hand forward with one card face down. Another player not in the hand asked to see it (presumably using SOSA). Is the hand live?'

You are right that the floor will want to award the pot to the best hand, but the hand really shouldn't matter in this case. It should be a simple matter of does SOSA make a non-tabled hand live?
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Old 02-18-2019, 01:47 PM   #11
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

OP didn't say anything to indicate this was SOSA not IWTSTH, but if it somehow was a SOSA request then it is never live even if the winner asks. (In RRoP, IMO)
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Old 02-18-2019, 01:49 PM   #12
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
OP didn't say anything to indicate this was SOSA not IWTSTH, but if it somehow was a SOSA request then it is never live even if the winner asks. (In RRoP, IMO)
I assume it was SOSA as the OP mentioned 1) the player showed him the card, but not everyone else, and 2) the requesting player as not in the hand. SOSA seems like it would be more applicable.
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:12 PM   #13
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

D'oh, you're totally right!

Here is RRoP on the subject of SOSA:
Quote:
Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.
It's not entirely clear what "the preceding part of this rule" refers to, but the rule immediately before it is...the IWTSTH rule which I quoted above, which would seem to indicate that the SOSA request makes the hand live if the request comes from the winner, but not any losers.

Personally, I disagree with this interpretation/ruling. IMO, a SOSA request should never make the hand live, even if the winner requests it - you're just asking for equal information, which is one of the core rules of poker.

TDA is different entirely - as far as they are concerned, there is no SOSA rule, and showing cards is subject to sanction:
Quote:
67: No Disclosure

Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:

Discuss contents of live or mucked hands,
Advise or criticize play at any time,
Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled.
One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.

68: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding

Exposing cards with action pending may result in a penalty but not a dead hand. Any penalty begins at the end of the hand. When folding, cards should be pushed forward low to the table, not deliberately exposed or tossed high (“helicoptered”). See also Rule 66.
Note that 67 might apply at showdown (though it's a bit of a stretch), but 68 does not, since action is complete. Still, while penalties are discussed, there is no discussion of SOSA at all.
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:36 PM   #14
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Parsing the rules is all well and good, but lets not ignore the fact that OP is trying to claim a pot that he did not deserve, after his opponent misread his hand or did not recognize he had winners.

I know, rules are rules etc etc... but this is just the kind of thing that drives the fun players from the game and earns poker players the reputation of being scuzzy. The smart move is to let the pot go, and make sure the winner is aware that he botched the hand and make sure he knows how to properly table his hand. OP trying to claim a pot on a technicality with a losing hand is just shooting an angle.
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Old 02-18-2019, 04:21 PM   #15
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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Originally Posted by 2pairsof2s View Post
Parsing the rules is all well and good, but lets not ignore the fact that OP is trying to claim a pot that he did not deserve, after his opponent misread his hand or did not recognize he had winners.

I know, rules are rules etc etc... but this is just the kind of thing that drives the fun players from the game and earns poker players the reputation of being scuzzy. The smart move is to let the pot go, and make sure the winner is aware that he botched the hand and make sure he knows how to properly table his hand. OP trying to claim a pot on a technicality with a losing hand is just shooting an angle.
So, you don't think the ability to read a hand is a relevant poker skill, or that we should be able to correct players when they are about to misplay a hand? If a guys if about to fold to a bluff, you are OK saying 'hey, this guy always bluffs?'

You will say 'of course not, that's different', but it really isn't. A player made a mistake and misplayed his hand, another player should not be able to come in and alter that.
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Old 02-18-2019, 04:55 PM   #16
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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So, you don't think the ability to read a hand is a relevant poker skill, or that we should be able to correct players when they are about to misplay a hand? If a guys if about to fold to a bluff, you are OK saying 'hey, this guy always bluffs?'

You will say 'of course not, that's different', but it really isn't. A player made a mistake and misplayed his hand, another player should not be able to come in and alter that.
I'm saying that whenever possible, the pot should go to the best hand.

Obviously the guy botched the hand, but for whatever reason the winning cards were exposed before the pot was pushed.

In my opinion, the rule which states "The Best Hand Wins" should supersede technical rules about how the hand was played out in this case.

I think the Floor should always have the rule that the best hand should win foremost in his mind, and in this case I think a good Floor would push the pot to the best hand, before administering a few KITN's.

One to the Dealer for not pushing the pot before exposing the hand. One to the villain, a gentle one reminding him to properly table his hand. And one to OP for being an angle-shooter, which I wish was discouraged much more than I've ever seen in any room.

For you to say that this equates to me believing that other rules of play should be discarded or ignored is silly quibbling. It's a lazy mans debate tactic. "Oh you think the speed limit on that freeway should be 75 instead of 60??? I guess you just want there to be no speed limit anywhere then!!!"

Me, I'd just as soon the guy that plays 9-3 to the river in a $60 pot stick around, not leave in a huff feeling like he was done wrong.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:05 PM   #17
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

OP did nothing resembling angle shooting here, and I have a wider definition of that than most. No idea what you think he did that was angly.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:05 PM   #18
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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Originally Posted by 2pairsof2s View Post
One to the Dealer for not pushing the pot before exposing the hand.
You think pushing the pot is the point of no return?
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:28 PM   #19
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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OP did nothing resembling angle shooting here, and I have a wider definition of that than most. No idea what you think he did that was angly.
"You have the best hand but I am claiming the pot on a technicality" is sleazy as heck, especially if the guy is a new player or a random fun player.

Trying to claim a pot with a losing hand on a technicality is a good example of what I would consider an angle.

Last edited by 2pairsof2s; 02-18-2019 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:29 PM   #20
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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You think pushing the pot is the point of no return?
I think the rule is that Dealer is supposed to push the pot before fulfilling "IWTSTH" requests to avoid these kinds of problems.
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:00 PM   #21
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pairsof2s View Post
"You have the best hand but I am claiming the pot on a technicality" is sleazy as heck, especially if the guy is a new player or a random fun player.

Trying to claim a pot with a losing hand on a technicality is a good example of what I would consider an angle.
Hmm, I believe most here people don't consider not tabling one's hand at all to be "a technicality".

I know I've never won a pot without tabling both cards. In fact, once when I was a newbie I tabled only one card, which was the card that would make me a winner, and I still didn't win the pot, as no one told me to table the other card. It didn't stop me from becoming an avid poker player, and I didn't consider the actions of anyone else at the table to be sleazy, as they were all just following the OPTAH rule.
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:04 PM   #22
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pairsof2s View Post
I think the rule is that Dealer is supposed to push the pot before fulfilling "IWTSTH" requests to avoid these kinds of problems.
The point of no return is generally not until the shuffle for the next hand has started. If one is going to accept dealer tabling of players' cards, OP would lose this pot at the time, even if it had already been pushed to him.
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:50 PM   #23
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pairsof2s View Post
I think the rule is that Dealer is supposed to push the pot before fulfilling "IWTSTH" requests to avoid these kinds of problems.
Great, you’ve moved matter from one part of the table to another and invented a new point of no return.

Quote:
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TDA is way more typical for cash play these days than Roberts
lol what? You should call around and inform all of the poker room managers. It’s as much news to them as it is to us.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:03 PM   #24
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

His hand isn't live, since a player not in the hand asked to see the card.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:44 AM   #25
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Re: Your opinions on this hand

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lol what? You should call around and inform all of the poker room managers. It’s as much news to them as it is to us.
I did ... 12 rooms called in the Midwest ...

Strict TDA - 5
'Own' rule set but lean towards TDA - 4
Roberts - 3

In 4 of the calls the Floor that answered didn't even know what Robert's or TDA was until I started asking them about how they would handle different rulings and had to ask someone else ... yes, I made sure I was talking to a Floor.

The Roberts rooms were the smaller rooms with very little tournaments on their schedules. GL

PS .. What would be interesting is that if I called back 12 hours from now to see if I get different answers.
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