Hey all. Would you call this angle out in a live setting?

So I’m playing a tournament this past weekend and a guy makes a standard river bet (maybe like 50-60% of pot) on day 2 of the tourny so we are getting close to the money. The older guy who has action on him gets the calls chips together and sorta shuffled them and holds them looking at other player. Looked like he was going to call and had the chips in hand.

I was just an observant but I felt it was an angle to get a read and felt it was quite douchey. I didn’t say anything but I kinda wanted to bc I felt it was slightly grimey. It reminded me of what chance kornuth did in the main event when he picked up chicks and moved them backwards to get a read.

Is it worth ever calling this out? If I was in hand and someone did this against me, I would be pretty damn mad.

I'm not sure what you think the angle is?

That's not an angle. That's probably the most common action in live poker when trying to get a read on someone. It's an integral part of the live game.

IMO until you make some kind of pump fake, no prob. Stacking/shuffling certainly fine imo. I am a visual person and have an almost incessant chip shuffling habit. So stacking the call let’s me ‘see’ what the impact is. Then I will shuffle reflexively while I think. But I do make sure I am and remain well behind my cards and any betting line if present.

Still imo, simply lifting / holding while trying to get a read, meh. Does move closer to my slime line but probably not there. But pump fakes or other intentional movement to elicit inform is at least at in not over my slime line if only for the time it wastes. Still would have to be pretty blatant for me to call it an angle.

How do you define 'angle' where you would think that this is one?

This is super standard.

The only angle would be if he committed some action that looked like a call but technically wasn't (moving chips forward to, but not over, the betting line, tossing a non-playing 'lucky' chip in the middle, etc.)

Looking like you are about to act a certain way to get a read is not an angle by any definition I have seen or used.

The reason this reminded you of what Chance did is pretty simple. Neither of these are angles. No reason to be mad though.

Tossing a non playing chip into the middle..... that would be a bad angle. Have you ever seen that? Could surely be a case for binding that player to a call as there is absolutely no valid reason to do that

I also get mad when anyone looks at me.

Is this thread an angle

I've heard this sort of objection to more, or less, standard behavior before. What it comes down to is that the people objecting don't understand how someone else is getting the read and think it's unfair.

Almost the equal opportunity, vs. equal outcome argument.

I would personally call that angel and give her her wings.

I don't think this is an angle.

However, had he moved the chips forward as if he was going to bet then I would say its an angle. I learned this the hard way when in a hand with the nuts a guy took out chips to make a bet and then moved them forward (pump fake) but still behind his cards (at Foxwoods where if you move chips past your cards its a bet). I insta-shoved and he just laughed and mucked his hand. Nothing I could do. It wasn't a bet. Was his pump fake an angle? Yes it was. Did I learn to never react until chips are definitively in the pot? Yes I did.

Whether somebody picks up chips or not they are always going to be looking for tells as to whether or not to call.

I was the villain in a similar spot though my behavior was unintentional. At the Wynn in a Seniors tournament I had two pair and the river was a meaningless card that could only help somebody who had a gutter. I was in position and was going to bet if my opponent checked. My opponent however made a largish bet which I assumed to be a bluff, so I started assembling calling chips behind my cards. As I was putting together the chips he moved his hand forward in a motion that said to me he was getting ready to turn over the nuts. So I stopped what I was doing and I asked him how it was possible. And then I open folded my two pair. He showed me his straight and I told him what had happened (which was stupid I know because why should I be helping him?) Still we both laughed and I am thinking he learned not to do that again.

Hell yeah OP, call out that angle. Someone counting out chips? Should be kicked out of the tournament instantly.

Oh, how I hope this is sarcasm.

Do you wait until the movie starts to enter the theater? GL


PS .. Not an angle unless the pump faking starts .. and even that is allowed in today's 'release' world.

Here you've described a re-angle. Fair game imo.

I know of a couple locals who pump fake air chips, meaning that they will be shuffling chips while tanking, then slightly shift their hand to the right or left of the stack of chips and kind of move their empty hand out forward toward the line, transitioning the hand into some sort of "natural" action like stretching their hand. I know they're doing it intentionally because it looks idiotic, because they'll dart their eyes toward their opponents face for a reaction and because they have garbage personalities.
It's the best when they stare down over insignificant pots/bets.

I remember the "Pump Fake Incident" years ago on HSP between Todd Brunson and Phil Laak. Brunson was contemplating his action and wanted to get a read on Laak. Brunson grabbed a stack of chips in his hand and made clear forward motion all the way over the pot, but never allowing the chips to touch the felt, then pulled them back out. Laak actually had a great play-by-blay in a Blog that I can't find anymore. He said that he didn't think Todd was an angle shooter. He did some research, calling rooms on the East Coast, LA, and Vegas. He concluded that in Vegas "Forward Motion" isn't generally binding but is more commonly binding other places.

This happens every day, it's def not an angle. Also you're allowed to look at people to try and get a read on them when action's on you.

As we see many times across these threads, there is some inconsistency from room to room in certain aspects of the game and this could certainly qualify as one of those spots.

Even in our immediate area there are some glaring differences and you need to remember which room you are in lest you 'slip up' in the wrong room.

One area that has been popping up lately is the verbal raise and then putting out the call 'habit'. I've explained to both Floors and Dealers that this is moving in a different direction and they need to get on board before a Player gets 'hurt'. WELL, too late, one of the Players who made this a habit came in and told me that he lost a very large pot since he was forced to min-raise after putting out the calling chips, thus allowing Players to get a great price to continue.

You hear all the excuses .. "This is a home game" .. " This is a 'friendly' room" .. "That's being a little too picky" .. and I tell them the same thing every time, "Developing good and consistent habits, thus making them automatic allows you to worry about the mechanics of the game less and focus on the game itself more when you travel to a different area."

We've all seen that this is 'friendly' or whatever and then something happens and the money aspect of it jumps right to the forefront .. or someone is having a bad day and 'pulls' something you don't normally expect from them. And now you have dust for a few hours, days or weeks over something that could've been avoided.

Yes, we are all human .. I know .. GL

Which direction are you advocating that the rooms should take? TDA rules mandate a min raise in this scenario.

I think he's saying if you say raise and then put out a call you are forced to a min raise instead of any size raise. I did not really know this rule was changing.

Yes, that is the rule, according to TDA. If you want to raise, you can either put out the entire raise in one motion or you can verbally announce an amount and that put out the chips in as many motions as you like. In other words, if you're facing an opening bet of 200, and you announce "raise" and then silently put out 200 chips, you are committed to a bet of 400. No more, no less.

Makes me think of that moneymaker farha hand.

Tbh, hooking up with J Tilly is about the best move I've seen him make,the brunson hand was an angle and he just doesn't want to make waves.