I have little experience with B&M. Of course I have heard that B&M players are generally looser. But what about someone who considered themselves a TAG in B&M SSNL? If someone sat next to them with Pokertracker, what would their numbers be after a large enough sample? Would it still be in the neighborhood of 14/7? Or are even the TAGs a little looser in B&M simply because they don't see as many hands and need to play ones that are a bit weaker?

No answers because it is a stupid or obvious question? Show me some love here.

It's an obvious question.

The looser the table, the larger the average pot. The larger the average pot, the wider the range of starting hands that can be played for one bet.

In general, the SSHE recommendations for tight games are a good guide online. The recommendations for loose games are a good guide in a B&M.

Live players at SSNL are beyond ******ed, I am one of them. I will reguarly raise to 40xBB with XX, how can you play against that?

I'd imagine you would take my money, like all the others...



JT

VPIP, I'd say yes.

I probably have a slighty higher VPIP live becuase I get bored, but that's a leak not strategy. With the larger number of short stacks (CA games) and the generally wild play its in your interest to tighten up a lot.

PFR, um, no. MY PFR is much smaller live than online and I play much more passively. Put simply, there's little reason to 3-bet 77 or 9Ts on the button becuase you're going to get called in 4 or 5 spots anyway, so you might as well see a flop since you can't isolate.

$0.02

VPIP will never be the same live as online, even for tight players. The simple reasoning behind this is the time factor. Unless you have superhuman patience, you simply cannot sit there for stretches of 30-40 minutes at a time without playing hands.

my vpip is a lot lower when I play live NL, because in LA, they make you buy in super short.

I do it all the time. When not tilting and not getting cards I've gone hours without playing a hand.

Which, of course, leads me to going busto with AJo 'cuz it looks like a monster, sure. But not playing a hand for 30 minutes is standard.

My point exactly. In many B&M games where the buy-in is 20, 40, or 50 bbs the correct strategy is to have a lower VPIP than the onnline 100bb tables.

Since you cannot multitable at a B&M (as you can online), there will be a natural tendency to play more hands (or die of boredom).

Also, the rake and dealer tokes reduces longterm profitablilty using a strictly TAG strategy. Therefore B&M players must compensate by occasionaly playing bigger multiway pots using a wider range of hands.

My $0.02

No

Poker is poker. This is why there is no separate forums for live and online strategy on 2+2. Imagine how much bad advice would come from it.

I understand now, Masters of the Universe.

This is exactly backwards. The fewer hands you play the smaller the effect of rake and tips on your profitability (fewer wins = less rake).

In a timed game (not raked) a TAG strategy works against your profitability. You are paying to sit there and fold.

If you can't sit still for 30-40 minutes you should'nt play poker live.

All the online nits say the same thing. Try going to a casino and putting it into practice. I find it amusing how you think it's easy to sit there and do absolutely nothing but watch people splash chips around, for blocks that take up most of an hour's time. Sorry, but live we don't have the conveinience of being in our house while playing 250 hands an hour and being able to distract ourselves with AOL IM while we fold.

You could try, I don't know, watching the game and figuring out your opponents?

Very cute and creative. Clearly this was a dynamic I had not considered. Thank you for bringing this amazing bit of previously undiscovered information to my attention.

Obviously, you can spend time observing betting tendencies, applying reads, and gathering general information, as well as getting an online-like assessment of stack sizes, etc. However:
A) many hands are routine and don't really possess much in terms of things to analyze to occupy your time
B) unless you are the world's most amazing and patient poker player, human nature will take over after so long and you will be bored of sitting there doing nothing, it's not as simple as you make it sound.

Also, the looser your opponents are, the looser you can play. If people like to raise or limp-call T-7, more of your hands are ahead of their range.

This simple yet valuable piece of advice, while deemed worthy of sarcasm by Firestorm, is CONSTANTLY ignored by otherwise good players.

I'm always amazed to see a player whose game seems solid still call or even raise an LPP who wakes up and leads out on the turn. If said fish had a big "45/2/.3" above his head, you'd fold in an instant. Yet many TAGs turn into calling stations 'cause they weren't paying attention.

How do you beat someone playing any 2 who keeps beating you with crap 2pr ? KNOW THEIR TENDENCIES! For a long time I wondered why I always seemed to do well early in sessions and then losing late. It's because I watched everyone closely when I first sat down, and when I'd got a handle on the table I stopped paying attention. People cycle through these games like **** through a goose, and that guy you thought was solid may actually be a fish who's been hitting the deck for the first hour you were there. Precisely because B&M play is slower and you see fewer hands, it's CRITICAL to always watch and figure them out quickly.

If that's too complicated, just watch the game on the big screen and check out the cocktail waitresses. I'll be the guy sitting to your left.

Live game plays substantially different than an online game, any good player's optimal play is always to adapt to the table.

And I learned B&M style after learning online with pokertracker, I always think in terms of what-would-PT-say when playing live.

Save the pointless stats with acronym friggin' names for some forum other than brick and mortar. This is where people go to avoid reading such bullpucky. If you have any experience at all with live play you'll know that we don't friggin' use vpip, ipip, upip they-pip or butt-pip in live play.

Sheesh.

A) There's no such thing as a "routine" or "unimportant" hand. While the actions in said hands may seem insignificant, every little tidbit of information can and will be applicable in later hands. Those who are paying attention to every hand will reap the rewards of seemingly worthless information.
B) You don't have to be the world's most amazing poker player to play optimally, you just have to have the patience required to make the best decisions. This will include a lot of folding. While it's difficult to sit there for an hour and a half and always squeeze a 2 or a 3, it'll be worth it when you're sitting on 5x the buyin cap in four hours.

I do it all the time. That's how I beat small stakes games. It isn't easy to not play a hand for 90 minutes but that's the discipline you need sometimes. And then I'll pick up a big pocket pair, raise, and get called in 4 places anyway.

yup, the last time i played live, I sat down at 12:03am and didn't win my first hand until 4:11am and still booked a win!

crazy...