bear with me this is NOT a line check or strategy bquestion...but want to give the example why I am asking this..

Villain just came to my table (from a must move) obviously steaming, and telling a tablemate she was getting crushed

her very first hand she opens for $30 and I just flat with AQss...flop is 873r. she bets 55 with about i raise to $225 leaving her about $380 behind...my intentions is to jam any card that i could rep that is scary to her overcards/overpair...again going off the fact she is tilted and possibly overplaying her hand. turn is a 4. she checks i jam.....and this is where my main point/question comes from


She tanks and tanks and tanks....then asked..."if I fold will you show?" I say nothing and sit as still as possible....just then noticrs this and groans.

then as more time goes by she starts muttering softly I think i have to pay you off...and shows her neighbor her hand....

i start to think i have to do something now to get her to fold. I told her i would show her one if she folds and she can choose....she eventually calls flipping over KK........i get lucky on the river spiking an A.

a bit later....she said at first i was going to muck pretty quickly when you didnt say anything after i asked if youd show if i folded"




TLDR

what does "if you show me if i fold" mean...what are villains trying to get out of it? What should my response be? what does me sitting doing nothing mean...

is this villain dependent or is there a trend to table talk? I hate it and ALWAYS feel ill make the worng decision....so i just stay silent...most of the time lol

thanks

I think a lot of the time they want to fold but need that reassurance that they have made the 'right' decision. Without it, they are more likely to call, just to avoid the 'did I get bluffed' feeling. If they look like folding, I'd just shrug and say 'sure'. Just make sure you have the goods next time.

I've been asked this a lot, and the most neutral response I can come up with is, "I never answer that question in a hand" or something similar. If you give away anything else, including just ignoring them, people are likely to read something into it.

Tell them you might not show if they call

I never answer. I know I'm not a good enough actor to hide my confidence when I have or my fear when I don't.

exact same here. some people are so good at table talk...not me...

Best answers are:

1) As mentioned above, "I might not show if you call" but that requires a certain level of comfor, but damn it's so good.
2) "I never answer that question, sorry"
3) The one I go with is "Only if you show what you're folding" because I don't want it to be a one way flow of info and I feel like I get more value from seeing their hand than they are likely to get from seeing mine. Also this now adds motivation for my answer that is irrelevant to my hand strength, as what I appear I want out of the exchange is to see their hand rather than for them to call or to fold.

i realy like #3

In tournaments, you actually are not supposed to answer the question since it influences action. Ive had dealers interject "dont answer that" when it gets asked.


If I am bluffing and get asked that, I almost always nod affirmatively, esp vs a rec. The people who ask this almost always want to fold, but they also want to see what I have. Then showing the bluff is good for your image later. Im like 4/4 getting folds in this type of situation in big spots where I was bluffing.

she is a pro fyi. dont know if that changes things. but that makes sense...gets rid of the "calls cause they are curious"

I'm also changing my answer to #3

"Will you fold if I show?"

Seems to me that could go bad.
When he sees your bluff he says "I called.".

Against a pro, best thing to do is to stay silent.

Huh? He folds his hand face up, it is mucked, I reveal hand, I take pot.

If a player throws their cards forward face up when facing a bet, my room treats that as a fold.

This a classic table talk prompt .. Typically if a Player says 'no' that means they have it. Not wanting to give the other Player the confidence and full closure of a good fold. If they say 'yes' then is weak or bluff and they will be happy to rub your mistake in your face.

Also within speech a Player will 'say' the opposite word of what they want you to do in a sentence somehow. The action Player is supposed to key in on the word and think that they would never tell the truth and do the opposite of the word, not necessarily the context of the sentence the word was used in.

Against an unknown Player I may stay silent and separate my cards to suggest that I will let them pick one, but not confirm my intentions. GL

There are some players who excel at table talk and really do influence opponents behavior to their advantage. Others are good at interpreting opponents talking to inform their own decisions. IME there are very few players who fit into those categories. The rest fall into what I consider time wasters. The ask stuff like "why so much" yet basically dont gain any actionable info from it. They've just seen other players talk and feel like they are supposed to do it too. It's like when a player asks who raised. If they dont follow the game closely enough to know that, it likely doesnt matter.

I know that I suck at trying to use table talk to my advantage. So I never talk while I have cards, period. That way I cant give anything away by chit chatting sometimes and going silent the rest. After a while, players realize I dont talk, and quit asking. This works best for me. So I never answer the fold question, or any other question. I just look at the table and wait for them to act.

The standard sense is that if a player says they will show, it means they are weak bc they want you to fold. But so many players know this that many do the reverse tell and say yes when they have the nuts.

IMO unless you feel you have a particular gift for table talk you should just stay silent. Self-inflicted wounds are the most painful.

Yeah this is basically how I do it and its way simpler to just pretend to be an Easter Island statue than it is to try to level your opponent while avoiding levelling yourself.

In heads up play, I don't think this is against tournament rules. You can't disclose accurate information about your hand(or did they change that), but the notion that you can't say anything that could influence the hand seems off.

The definition of a "pro" is simply someone who is trying to generate most of their income from poker. It doesn't mean "good."

This is an mid 2000's parlor trick to try to get you to give a tell so they can make a decision based off that. If you can't stay silent, start talking about whatever game is on with your neighbor. "Who do you have in this game" is a good starter even if you don't know anything about the sport. It gives the message that they and the hand aren't important enough to waste any further time on.

i agree, all she does is her sole income is from poker and no shes not particularly "good" but someone said "against a rec" which she def isnt. but by no means a crusher...

Best response is no response. Next best response is "Maybe".
But usually I just cock an eyebrow as in "Seriously? Just play the damn game!"

As a tell it might be a timing tell. If you have to think about the answer it's a borderline decision. If you're answer is immediate then you're polarized (bluff/monster)

I'll show you if you call

Imo, she was never folding, she was just wasting time as many players enjoy doing for some reason. She told you afterwards she was going to snap fold as a level. How can you “muck pretty quickly” when she tanked and tanked before even asking the question?

Something to think about is that many players are really really bad at remembering what was actually happening in a hand, and what their thought process was. Sometimes what they tell you about their play wasn’t even a lie, they just genuinely don’t remember what actually happened. What she told you after the fact isn’t consistent to what actually happened during the hand.

I think you had it right, up until the point you decided to say you would show one. If you never answer the question, eventually people will stop asking, and then you can just not participate in the silly speech games people play.

Yeah I knew the “I’ll show one” def made her call. Although right before I said it she was muttering I guess I just have to pay you off.

When I didn’t answer here first question. She did reply “oh ****” like man he’s giving me nothing

But I agree. I don’t think she was ever folding after her tanking. She was talking herself into a call. Which from my perspective was a bad one. Everything in my calling range beats her 87 88 77 56 all which I would have played the same. But that’s not the point of the thread lol.