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Old 06-16-2018, 10:03 PM   #26
PTLou
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by Fore View Post
Your estimate for slot rev is way low. No way a poker table out earns avg slot rev 25 to 1. You need to cut that ratio some and then flip it to favor slots. An active dollar machine will take about $50 per hour easy

Comment I responded to was that a single slot machine can out perform a poker table. It cannot.

Slot Machine Win Per Day depends on market and other factors but ranges from $50 to $250 (could be more in markets with very little competition).

Though from 2004, here is win per day data that was easy to google. hasn't changed much since then.

http://gaming.unlv.edu/abstract/slotwin.html#nv
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:22 PM   #27
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

Some figures from the Baltimore casinos...
Quote:

Gross gaming revenue per unit per day in May at MGM National Harbor was:
$375.78 for slot machines
$6,745.60 for banked table games
$1,435.11 for non-banked table games. (POKER)

Live! Casino & Hotel’s gross gaming revenue per unit per day was:
$289.10 for slot machines
$3,225.19 for banked table games
$845.65 for non-banked table games. (POKER)

Horseshoe Casino Baltimore gross gaming revenue per unit per day was:
$191.48 for slot machines
$2,330.83 for banked table games
$744.51 for non-banked table games. (POKER)

Plus, slots are taxed at around 55% while poker and pits are taxed at 20% of gross.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:11 AM   #28
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
The only way they can make an employee work overtime is the threat of discipline or termination. If an employee wants to leave they can't physically prevent it.

The other night I had 2 employees refuse overtime. Both had other jobs they needed to be at and both made the decision that they would rather jeopardize this job than the other job. (Discipline is done above me so I don't know what did or will happen to the dealers. I suspect if it is a one time thing they will just have progressive discipline)
So you're saying you can't force them to work overtime, but you can fire them if they refuse? That sounds crazy to me. I assume the dealers aren't unionized? (I am NOT looking for a debate on the merits of unions, I'm simply asking cuz every casino in BC (afaik) is unionized.)
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:04 AM   #29
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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So you're saying you can't force them to work overtime, but you can fire them if they refuse? That sounds crazy to me. I assume the dealers aren't unionized? (I am NOT looking for a debate on the merits of unions, I'm simply asking cuz every casino in BC (afaik) is unionized.)
I don't know if all BC casinos are unionized but there have been HUGE gains in the last few years for organized labour out west.

But in most markets dealers aren't unionized. Canada is making great progress towards unionization for gaming but south of the border not so much.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:53 AM   #30
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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So you're saying you can't force them to work overtime, but you can fire them if they refuse? That sounds crazy to me. I assume the dealers aren't unionized? (I am NOT looking for a debate on the merits of unions, I'm simply asking cuz every casino in BC (afaik) is unionized.)
Most poker dealers are not union. I'm not saying they will be fired I'm saying that's the worst you that can happen. I would expect progressive discipline in most places
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:37 AM   #31
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by sw_emigre View Post
So you're saying you can't force them to work overtime, but you can fire them if they refuse? That sounds crazy to me. I assume the dealers aren't unionized? (I am NOT looking for a debate on the merits of unions, I'm simply asking cuz every casino in BC (afaik) is unionized.)
Just to be clear, since OP is talking about a casino in the UK:
Thereís limited power to force employees to work overtime in the EU and you canít discipline them for refusing to in a case like that. The casino also can only terminate an employee for cause (or for economical reasons, but thatís complicated) and not basically at will like in the US. Only from movies do Europeans know the situation of getting called into their mangers office to be terminated.

I donít think thatís super relevant to this situation but just a general reminder that employer - employee relations work different in other parts of the world.
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Old 06-17-2018, 12:42 PM   #32
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Some figures from the Baltimore casinos...


Plus, slots are taxed at around 55% while poker and pits are taxed at 20% of gross.
All of which are at the max or above the earlier claim
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:18 PM   #33
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Well actually if you have just 1 table you could put it in the pit and share those resources.

However people overlook that the costs of a dealer exceed the wage as employees bring other expenses. And also remember that the drop is taxed (at least in most US jurisdictions) and in some places the gaming tax is pretty high.
The two tables are in the pit. So only the dealers needed. I do appreciate itís not just abc with Costs tho

Just finished having a decent chat with a long term worker there who tells me itís cos they are genuinely short staffed. And because they share staff amoungst the games. The company values returns from blackjack and roulette first. So poker will only run if and when. He said they were 42 workers running the place 24:7 and now they are currently 24. So that explains the current massive inconsistency at the moment.

He did also mention that the table can take more than a £1000 on a good night at 1/1. Thereís never a walk at the table. And the standard open thatís call will already hit the rake minimum. Lol
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:08 PM   #34
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Right but see Sklasky point above re: marginal vs average. If you could just add slots and maintain the average ROI indefinitely then slot areas would be infinitely big and Earth would have no room for anything else.
Completely understand marginal vs average returns. But it also applies to poker tables. If a casino is already at or near poker saturation, a single new additional slot certainly can have a marginal return better than an additional poker table. Or the opposite. It all depends on that casino and that market. But I suspect that it is easier to grow the slot market than the poker market.
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:45 PM   #35
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
Most poker dealers are not union. I'm not saying they will be fired I'm saying that's the worst you that can happen. I would expect progressive discipline in most places
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Just to be clear, since OP is talking about a casino in the UK:
Thereís limited power to force employees to work overtime in the EU and you canít discipline them for refusing to in a case like that. The casino also can only terminate an employee for cause (or for economical reasons, but thatís complicated) and not basically at will like in the US. Only from movies do Europeans know the situation of getting called into their mangers office to be terminated.

I donít think thatís super relevant to this situation but just a general reminder that employer - employee relations work different in other parts of the world.
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Originally Posted by Guito View Post
I don't know if all BC casinos are unionized but there have been HUGE gains in the last few years for organized labour out west.

But in most markets dealers aren't unionized. Canada is making great progress towards unionization for gaming but south of the border not so much.
Tx guys
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:37 PM   #36
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by dumbandbored View Post
He did also mention that the table can take more than a £1000 on a good night at 1/1. Thereís never a walk at the table. And the standard open thatís call will already hit the rake minimum. Lol
What is the rake structure?
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:51 AM   #37
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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What is the rake structure?
1/1
5% rake after pot hits £10 (standard open is £6)
Capped rake at £6
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:17 AM   #38
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
Most poker dealers are not union. I'm not saying they will be fired I'm saying that's the worst you that can happen. I would expect progressive discipline in most places
Im in las vegas... my company cant force overtime, and there is no penalty for doing 8 hours and leaving. (and yes i have seen games force broken for that)... and yes I am on the strip.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:29 AM   #39
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Im in las vegas... my company cant force overtime, and there is no penalty for doing 8 hours and leaving. (and yes i have seen games force broken for that)... and yes I am on the strip.
Your company chooses to not have a penalty for refusing overtime. That is their choice .... but they could have a different policy if they wanted.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:17 AM   #40
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by dumbandbored View Post
I get giving your money to another player Is not the same as putting it all on black and giving it to the Casino.
But from a business perspective casinos make substantially more money on Rake even on low stakes 1/1. then it costs to put a dealer on a basic wage at a table, that’s not even inc tips. So providing the table doesn’t take up space which could be used for other types of gambling, I can’t see why they wouldn’t have it on providing demand was constant and sufficient to support the wage structure of a dealer.

Would really love to speak to someone who dealt with staffing or understood general running.

The only thing I can think is they are concerned the general degenerate gambler might choose to piss his money away on the poker table rather than in the pit against the house? But this argument isn’t really true as your normal “gambler”. Would find it too slow paced and not high enough return and might not even understand the rules enough to sit at poker

If this subject has been posted before I apologise. Can’t find it. Appreciate the thread link
Casinos make infinitely more money on table games than they do on poker. That's why casinos may make the decision to not run poker. Dealers at casinos makes less than minimum wage. They make the wages of other tipped professions, such as a waitress or bartender. So, if a casino is paying a dealer $6/hr to deal blackjack and makes a couple thousand dollars an hour, they are going to do that instead of running a poker table that may only make $200 max an hour.

The finance departments for casinos aren't stupid. They know where the money comes from, and the least profitable department in a casino is the poker room. Slots and table games make infinitely more money.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:42 AM   #41
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Re: Why do casinos not run poker/ regularly close full tables?

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
Dealers at casinos makes less than minimum wage.
Depends on the location of the casino.

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
The finance departments for casinos aren't stupid. They know where the money comes from...
True. I'd imagine they grasp the marginal return versus average return issue discussed above.
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