Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-16-2018, 11:00 PM   #1
Shocked
newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 19
Whose Pot is it?

I was playing PLO the other night at my local casino.

There were around 4 players to the flop, and somebody second to act bet $100. It folded to me, and I went all in for $360, which the dealer announced. It folded to the guy who bet the $100, who then threw in his cards well over the line towards the dealer (though the cards were distinguishable from the muck pile by a few inches). The dealer announced fold, threw me the initial bettor's $100 chip, and was going to ship me the pot. I then slid my cards over the line with a $1 tip as a chip, knowing I won the pot. Then the problem arose.

The initial bettor suddenly acted confused, and said he thought everybody else folded. I announced, and the dealer echoed, that he clearly mucked his cards, so I won the pot. The floor was then called over to assess what to do.

We explained the situation to the floor, and I emphasized again that the first player clearly mucked his cards after I raised his bet, throwing his cards well past the line towards the dealer after I went all in.

How should the floor rule?
Shocked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 11:43 PM   #2
callipygian
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 19,119
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Did you push $360 worth of chips forward, or was it just a verbal declaration?
callipygian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 11:58 PM   #3
AngusThermopyle
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AngusThermopyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 乱
Posts: 14,483
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Neither hand in the muck. (if the Dealer thought that Opponent had folded, he should have buried the cards into the muck)
Neither hand exposed.

Cards returned to players.
On Opponent to call or fold.
AngusThermopyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 02:11 AM   #4
albedoa
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,511
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Did you push $360 worth of chips forward, or was it just a verbal declaration?
This is way more important than the denomination of your tip chip, OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
(if the Dealer thought that Opponent had folded, he should have buried the cards into the muck)
True, but as we know, that he didn't bury them doesn't mean he didn't think that Opponent had folded. The guideline is that retrievable hands may be returned, not that they should be.

This looks like a fold to me, especially because the raise was announced by the dealer. I'd still like to hear how the bet was made.
albedoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 06:55 AM   #5
BackDoorFlush
veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,002
Re: Whose Pot is it?

If both hands are retrievable, then the floor may rule that action is back on V and play continues.

If either hand is in the muck/not retrievable, then the pot is yours (V folded his hand while facing a bet).
BackDoorFlush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 08:30 AM   #6
dinesh
veteran
 
dinesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,899
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Throwing your cards forward while facing a bet or raise is a fold. Unlike at showdown, there is no rule-based reason to suggest his hand is retrievable and therefore may be ruled live. Floor should explain that it is his responsibility to follow the action and protect his hand, and in the future he should not discard his winning hands until he is being pushed the pot if he wants to avoid situations like this again.

Having said that, he was last to act on your raise, his cards were retrievable, and no damage was yet done to you or other players as a result. There is an avenue to use rule 1 to rule his hand live, return his cards to him, and put action back on him. I don't hate this ruling if it's an obvious misunderstanding, but I probably wouldn't make it myself (as a floor...as a player I would almost certainly offer it instead of calling for the floor, unless the player were a real dick and/or rules stickler himself).

Last edited by dinesh; 05-17-2018 at 09:25 AM.
dinesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 09:27 AM   #7
Playbig2000
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Playbig2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Suffern, NY
Posts: 7,236
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Was the original bettor wearing headphones?

I don't see how he could think everyone folded if someone still had cards when he folded his hand (not to mention the dealer announced raise).

I would think they awarded the pot to the guy who went all in. You can't fold your hand then change your mind when facing a bet, even if it was your own mistake.
Playbig2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 10:28 AM   #8
Shocked
newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 19
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Did you push $360 worth of chips forward, or was it just a verbal declaration?
Pushed all chips forward and over the line. The dealer verbally announced that I was all in.
Shocked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 10:48 AM   #9
Playbig2000
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Playbig2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Suffern, NY
Posts: 7,236
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shocked View Post
Pushed all chips forward and over the line. The dealer verbally announced that I was all in.
Then it's even more clear that he folded and it's your pot.
Playbig2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 11:47 AM   #10
callipygian
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 19,119
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shocked View Post
Pushed all chips forward and over the line. The dealer verbally announced that I was all in.
Sounds like you did everything right. It's your pot for sure.

Strategically, though, I tend to not enforce it. With the caveat that most of my experience is LHE where the ratio of value betting to bluffing is super high, because most of my range is value bets, when faced with these scenarios I always try to give off a "I have a pretty strong hand so I don't mind if you call but it's not invincible so I don't mind if you fold" vibe, and offer to let them call if they want.
callipygian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 12:09 PM   #11
Motierre
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 15
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Dealer error, he should never be pushing the pot before mucking villains cards. And a tip, as a player you should never be releasing your cards until you receive the pot and/or are sure everyone else's hands are dead.
Motierre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 01:25 PM   #12
Suit
Pooh-Bah
 
Suit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,770
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shocked View Post
How should the floor rule?
He should rule the pot goes to you (the player that raised all in). However, there isn't anything stopping the floor from making the following ruling:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Neither hand in the muck.
Neither hand exposed.

Cards returned to players.
On Opponent to call or fold.
Is this a bad ruling? No. Being there and talking to the table would give a better idea if this would be reasonable, but generally that is a folded hand and the dealer needs to be corrected for not mucking it before pushing the pot. If the dealer does their job correctly, this is a no brainer. The other player needs to pay better attention.

Any other ruling is bad.

Last edited by Suit; 05-17-2018 at 01:31 PM.
Suit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 02:38 PM   #13
Rich Checkmaker
veteran
 
Rich Checkmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,115
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Yeah I could go other way on this one.
Rich Checkmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 03:30 PM   #14
youtalkfunny
dumbest smart person his mom knows
 
youtalkfunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: I can't believe it, either!
Posts: 21,136
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Play on, I say.

Tell the dealer when he gets up that mucking V's cards after pushing the pot, is not any easier than mucking them before pushing the pot. His shortcut wasn't any shorter. Just do things the right way from now on, plz.
youtalkfunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 04:15 PM   #15
Bene Gesserit
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bene Gesserit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: my old Kentucky Home
Posts: 6,142
Re: Whose Pot is it?

In this case OP should get the pot , but don't be shocked if from time to time a floor will rule against you. After all , the rules are always what the dealer/floor says they are for that hand.
Bene Gesserit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2018, 04:33 PM   #16
Mr Rick
Pooh-Bah
 
Mr Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,049
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Play on unless you gave off some indication about the strength of your hand.

I would understand if Floor ruled it was a fold. It was a fold. Except that the player misunderstood the action...

As a player I would offer play to continue. But I would take the tip back. I don't like to win on technicalities. And I don't like to tip bad dealers.

Also put yourself in the other player's shoes. It seems like an honest mistake. No harm done. Would be nice to be allowed to call the $260 and play on.
Mr Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2018, 01:08 PM   #17
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,031
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
Play on unless you gave off some indication about the strength of your hand.

I would understand if Floor ruled it was a fold. It was a fold. Except that the player misunderstood the action...

As a player I would offer play to continue. But I would take the tip back. I don't like to win on technicalities. And I don't like to tip bad dealers.

Also put yourself in the other player's shoes. It seems like an honest mistake. No harm done. Would be nice to be allowed to call the $260 and play on.
I don't like it. I don't like any ruling that allows a player to indicate one action, gauge a response, then change that action. Even in this case where it may have been innocent and no advantage was gained, I hate this precedent. And not only does this fall under a players responsibility to protect their action, I find it hard to believe, assuming OP is being fair and accurate, that a guy would make a $100 bet, then tune out to the point where they missed the player announcing all-in, the dealer announcing all-in, and chips being pushed across the line.

Put it another way, let's say a player raises small, a second player raises huge, a third player says 'call', then notices the raise and tries to retract his action. Absent extenuating circumstances, this would not be allowed, so why should he be aloowed to retract his action in this case.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2018, 10:34 PM   #18
Mr Rick
Pooh-Bah
 
Mr Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,049
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
I don't like it. I don't like any ruling that allows a player to indicate one action, gauge a response, then change that action. Even in this case where it may have been innocent and no advantage was gained, I hate this precedent. And not only does this fall under a players responsibility to protect their action, I find it hard to believe, assuming OP is being fair and accurate, that a guy would make a $100 bet, then tune out to the point where they missed the player announcing all-in, the dealer announcing all-in, and chips being pushed across the line.
I was watching the Aria high roller series this year in which they were televising final tables. There was a hand in which somebody raised and then a guy with KK 3-bet. Another guy 4-bet but the guy with KK didn't see it. The original raiser folded and the KK guy mucked his hand thinking he had won the pot. The Dealer put the hand into the muck as he was supposed to and the guy with KK lost the hand. I'm just saying it happens.

If I was in the hand and I knew there was no intent to get a read and I knew that I hadn't given a read then I will give the other player the opportunity to play on. If I turn my hand face up and the guy then reaches for his cards and says "Wait you raised I thought you folded" no way am I going to let him back in the hand.

Quote:
Put it another way, let's say a player raises small, a second player raises huge, a third player says 'call', then notices the raise and tries to retract his action. Absent extenuating circumstances, this would not be allowed, so why should he be allowed to retract his action in this case?
This happens all the time with SB's. They call the BB even though they are facing a raise. In many places they are allowed to fold, leaving the limped call in.

This happened in the WSOP main event with the French woman (I forget her name). She raised with KK the SB thinking everybody had folded to him, went all-in, the BB folded, the SB mucked his cards before the French woman could react (and the Dealer put them in the muck pile!). He was allowed to just put in the original raised amount and keep the rest of his stack. She had KK.

The precedent has already been set.
Mr Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:31 AM   #19
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,031
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
I was watching the Aria high roller series this year in which they were televising final tables. There was a hand in which somebody raised and then a guy with KK 3-bet. Another guy 4-bet but the guy with KK didn't see it. The original raiser folded and the KK guy mucked his hand thinking he had won the pot. The Dealer put the hand into the muck as he was supposed to and the guy with KK lost the hand. I'm just saying it happens.

If I was in the hand and I knew there was no intent to get a read and I knew that I hadn't given a read then I will give the other player the opportunity to play on. If I turn my hand face up and the guy then reaches for his cards and says "Wait you raised I thought you folded" no way am I going to let him back in the hand.


This happens all the time with SB's. They call the BB even though they are facing a raise. In many places they are allowed to fold, leaving the limped call in.

This happened in the WSOP main event with the French woman (I forget her name). She raised with KK the SB thinking everybody had folded to him, went all-in, the BB folded, the SB mucked his cards before the French woman could react (and the Dealer put them in the muck pile!). He was allowed to just put in the original raised amount and keep the rest of his stack. She had KK.

The precedent has already been set.
OK, some good points, but I don't agree with them. I will concede that a player can lose track of the action even after raising. it is rare, but doesn't mean that the player is definitely angling.

On your second point, let me make sure that there is a distinction between what I as a player would do and what I think the floor should rule. I, as a player, usually have no problem with a player reversing what I think is an honest mistake. Once the floor is called, though, they have to rule in a way that best preserves the integrity of the game. So it should be less about 'was an advantage gained here' but 'could an advantage be gained here'.

With regards to the Gael Baumann hand, the floor ruled that way because it was unclear with Baumann had said call before Koroknai mucked. I personally think it was a bad call, but i understood the logic. Had she called clearly before he mucked, he would have been out.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:35 AM   #20
callipygian
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 19,119
Re: Whose Pot is it?

Comparing the scenario in the OP to a televised high stakes game or the WSOP ME is not fair.

I'd suggest this rule: compare the amount of money currently at stake with the total EV you expect to make in scenarios like this for the rest of your life.

A $20 1/2 NL pot? If you're a solid winner you are going to win thousands at 1/2 NL, don't **** it up over a $20 pot.

Final table at the WSOP ME? I'm fighting for every penny, both because I never intend to see these people again and also because I'm probably the worst player at the table and only there by sheer luck.
callipygian is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online