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Old 06-15-2021, 11:40 PM   #1
DisRuptive1
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Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

I know this is kind of dumb but I'm curious if a typical poker rule book or the TDA rules actually lists what hand beats what. Or is this just a Rule Zero situation?
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Old 06-16-2021, 02:21 AM   #2
dinesh
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Doubtful, though certainly possible in some rulebooks. TDA definitely doesn't list it.

Most likely the hand rankings are listed in the regulatory offering which makes the game permissible. e.g. in PA gambling is run under the authority of the PGCB, which author the regulations which cover all permitted gambling, including poker (https://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/fi...ons_Master.pdf).

Section ß 637a.6. Poker rankings gives the poker rankings:
Quote:
(a) The rank of the cards used in all types of Poker other than low hand Poker in order of highest to lowest rank, shall be: ace, king, queen, jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3 and 2. Notwithstanding the foregoing, an ace may be used to complete a straight flush or a straight formed with a 2, 3, 4 and 5 but may not be combined with any other sequence of cards (for example, queen, king, ace, 2 and 3). All suits shall be considered equal in rank.
(b) The permissible five-card high hands, in order of highest to lowest rank, shall be:
(1) A royal flush, which is a hand consisting of an ace, king, queen, jack and 10
of the same suit.
(2) A straight flush, which is a hand consisting of five cards of the same suit in consecutive ranking, with king, queen, jack, 10 and 9 being the highest ranking straight flush and ace, 2, 3, 4 and 5 being the lowest ranking straight flush.
(3) A four-of-a-kind, which is a hand containing four cards of the same rank
regardless of suit, with four aces being the highest ranking four-of-a-kind and four 2s being the lowest ranking four-of-a-kind.
[etc ...]
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Old 06-16-2021, 05:24 AM   #3
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

The TDA rules have almost nothing to say about specific variants other than about irregularities particular to them, like 7th card being dealt face up in stud. It is not intended to be an all encompassing guide to everything poker. It addresses specific common situations to make sure they are handled the same no matter where you play.

A flush beats a straight in the current most popular variants but not in many others. New variants get introduced all the time.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:26 AM   #4
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

TDA and RRoP are related to game flow and procedures. It would generally be assumed that a Player knows the rankings.

Now we enter Short Deck .. You might need some ranking 'adjustments' in those rules. GL
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Old 06-16-2021, 03:18 PM   #5
WhiteFang
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

I recall reading that as poker evolved in the 19th and early 20th centuries when the game was draw and stud that a straight always beat a flush.
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Old 06-16-2021, 06:13 PM   #6
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

In a 5-card game, a flush is harder to get. In a 7-card game, a straight is (slightly) harder to get. However, hand rankings were set in stone based on the 5-card games.

It's really close either way, so it doesn't really matter.

Think of the joyish fun we would have if a flush beat a straight in 5 card draw, but a straight beat a flush in a 7 card game.

OH, JOY!!!
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Old 06-18-2021, 05:03 AM   #7
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKon View Post
However, hand rankings were set in stone based on the 5-card games.
What is that stone called? What should we show a player who wants to know why his 3-of-a-kind is beaten by a full house?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Most likely the hand rankings are listed in the regulatory offering which makes the game permissible.
In your example, what if the deck includes the Joker? Does a Royal Flush beat 5-of-a-kind?
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Old 06-18-2021, 07:55 AM   #8
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
What should we show a player who wants to know why his 3-of-a-kind is beaten by a full house?
Give him this?




Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
In your example, what if the deck includes the Joker? Does a Royal Flush beat 5-of-a-kind?
I've never seen a joker in a casino poker game.

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Old 06-18-2021, 08:42 AM   #9
dinesh
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
In your example, what if the deck includes the Joker? Does a Royal Flush beat 5-of-a-kind?
In my example, no games that include a joker are permissible for live poker in PA. But rest assured, the word "joker" appears 93 times in the document I linked above, outlining the ways jokers can be used in some of the other table games where it is permitted.

Historically there were some poker games that included a joker: A to 5 lowball, and 5 card draw. This is why RRoP has so many references to how to handle a joker (both when it is allowed, and when it is not).
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Old 06-18-2021, 10:01 AM   #10
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Our room has a brochure at the front desk available to players that is sort of a beginners guide, that lists hand rankings. There is a second brochure that lists house rules, like player is ultimately responsible for protecting his hand, making sure it is read correctly, mistakes must be disputed before next hand starts, floor decisions are final, etc. But that is separate from the room rule book that dealers and floors have access to, which is a large, detailed procedural manual, and which players do not have access to. That covers details like what constitutes a misdeal, who shows first at showdown, how many seats you can move before you have to post a blind, etc.
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Old 06-18-2021, 10:07 AM   #11
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
In your example, what if the deck includes the Joker? Does a Royal Flush beat 5-of-a-kind?
That depends on what the regulatory offering says that dinesh was referring to.

That said, I’ve never played in a joker game (all non-casino) where 5 of a kind wasn’t the best hand; for the very simple reason that it’s much harder to get than a royal flush (13 vs 20 combinations in a 53 card game). In a two joker game there are already 78 combinations to make 5 of a kind in a 54 card game and 72 combinations in a 52 card game (two of the jacks are wild).
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Old 06-18-2021, 11:15 AM   #12
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
In your example, what if the deck includes the Joker? Does a Royal Flush beat 5-of-a-kind?
Technically, 5-of-a-kind beats a Royal Flush. However, in a 53 card deck, it is impossible to have a Royal Flush and 5-of-a-kind, as the Joker only plays for Aces, straights and flushes.

So, the only 5-of-a-kind possible is Aces and one of the Aces is required for the Royal.
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Old 06-18-2021, 11:36 AM   #13
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Also, I believe with a Joker there are 24 (rather than 20) possible combinations for a Royal Flush.

20 with the Joker + 4 without.
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Old 06-18-2021, 02:03 PM   #14
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKon View Post
Technically, 5-of-a-kind beats a Royal Flush. However, in a 53 card deck, it is impossible to have a Royal Flush and 5-of-a-kind, as the Joker only plays for Aces, straights and flushes.

So, the only 5-of-a-kind possible is Aces and one of the Aces is required for the Royal.
I've never played in a joker game where you couldn't use it for whatever card you wanted to use it for.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:10 PM   #15
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
I've never played in a joker game where you couldn't use it for whatever card you wanted to use it for.
Here is RRoP on draw poker:
Quote:
THE JOKER
The players will be alerted as to whether the joker is in use.
The joker may be used only as an ace, or to complete a straight, flush, or straight flush. (Thus it is not a completely wild card.)
If the joker is used to make a flush, it will be the highest card of the flush not present in the hand.
Five aces is the best possible hand (four aces and joker).
Which doesn't quite line up with Jay's explanation, since it could be used for a non-ace in the SF, but I have no experience with those games so who knows how much variability there was.
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Old 06-18-2021, 03:43 PM   #16
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by browser2920 View Post
Our room has a brochure at the front desk available to players that is sort of a beginners guide, that lists hand rankings.
Excuse the cross-post from the other thread, but you were a participant, and I think it's relevant here: This is why everybody should be allowed and willing at any time to respond to questions whose answers are available in a newbie brochure provided by the front desk of the poker room. It's the welcoming thing to do, which is why the brochure is provided.
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Old 06-18-2021, 04:02 PM   #17
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Here is RRoP on draw poker
I also have never played draw poker with a joker

Didnít mean to say that jokers can always be used for every card, there are so many variants / house rules out there to make such a statement wrong by default. But same goes the other way round, there are definitely games where jokers can be used that way. Same for games where deuces are wild for example, which means a 52 card game with 4 jokers.
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Old 06-18-2021, 08:23 PM   #18
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Here is RRoP on draw poker:
Quote:
THE JOKER
The players will be alerted as to whether the joker is in use.
The joker may be used only as an ace, or to complete a straight, flush, or straight flush. (Thus it is not a completely wild card.)
If the joker is used to make a flush, it will be the highest card of the flush not present in the hand.
Five aces is the best possible hand (four aces and joker).
Which doesn't quite line up with Jay's explanation, since it could be used for a non-ace in the SF, but I have no experience with those games so who knows how much variability there was.

This comes from the days of five card draw, usually Jacks, or better, to open. A game played before about 1980.
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Old 06-20-2021, 10:36 AM   #19
Reducto
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Re: Where in the TDA rules does it state that a flush beats a straight?

I've never dealt it, but I've worked places where Mexican poker was on the approved games list. It's short deck 5 card stud with a button and a joker. The joker can be used as anything if dealt face down, if face up it can only be an ace or part of a straight of flush.

Also... flush beats a full house and 5 of a kind beats a straight flush.
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