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Old 07-03-2018, 11:12 PM   #51
Asterix811
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Regardless of whether you pay slightly less or slightly more, what makes a much larger difference is the quality of the average opponent. You go from a scenario where you end up vs an exploitable player 1/9*1/9 of the time to 1/4*1/4 of the time - a 5x increase in the number of opportunities to exploit.
Not sure I understand your numbers.

And in my experience, the average 2/4 table full of old regs usually has at least 4 or 5 exploitable players. And in a game where half the table routinely sees the flop, that means I end up vs. an exploitable player pretty much 100% of the time.

Last edited by Asterix811; 07-03-2018 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:20 PM   #52
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

Two observations:

1. You poker pros sure love you jargon and abbreviations. It sometimes takes me a little while to figure out what you mean.

2. Somehow this thread has strayed from the subject of walkers and meal buttons.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:16 PM   #53
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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Not sure I understand your numbers.
Let's try without numbers.

When you play full ring (FR), you play very few hands. Because there are a lot of players, you don't often have the best hand preflop, and the speculativr hands you play have to hit hard to catapult you into the lead over many players.

When you play short handed (SH), you have the best hand a lot more of the time, and when you don't, you don't have to flop very much to take the lead.

But here's the rub - you get (or have) to play more hands, but each villain also gets (or has) to play more hands too. So if you get/have to play twice as many hands and they get/have to play twicr as many hands then you face them 2x2 as often. (Okay I guess I lied about no numbers.)

---

Also I'm not a pro.

---

Also the reason this relates to meal buttons is this: for the best poker players, you want the game to be as short as it can be without breaking. Don't call for rules in your room that will hamper the opportunity.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:22 PM   #54
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

The apparently assumption that all pots are heads up (you were only taking pairwise combinations right?) isn't valid for FR obviously but the point is still valid--you'll be playing the same opponents vastly more often, more than just a linear scaling.
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:54 PM   #55
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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I can't stand it either. We frequently have 3 walkers at my table. Personally, I wish they'd pick the guys up. I've been at several tables that broke quickly because 2 guys left and we already had 3 walkers.
If the game breaks because 2 guys left, I have to assume there is no list. If there is no list what benefit do you get from picking up walkers?
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:16 PM   #56
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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The apparently assumption that all pots are heads up (you were only taking pairwise combinations right?) isn't valid for FR obviously but the point is still valid--you'll be playing the same opponents vastly more often, more than just a linear scaling.
I was trying to keep the math simple. Technically it should scale with VPIP, which should be like 18-20 FR and 35ish 6m, and Villains typically scale weirdly because they don't adjust well so you get these TAGs that open sub-10% from the CO 4-handed because it's UTG.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:45 PM   #57
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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If the game breaks because 2 guys left, I have to assume there is no list. If there is no list what benefit do you get from picking up walkers?
I made the same argument at a table once and it was explained to me that even if there’s no list, if someone does walk in wanting to be seated, they’ll be seated at the table with seven active players and a couple empty seats and not at the full table playing five handed with four walkers.
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:13 AM   #58
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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I made the same argument at a table once and it was explained to me that even if there’s no list, if someone does walk in wanting to be seated, they’ll be seated at the table with seven active players and a couple empty seats and not at the full table playing five handed with four walkers.
That's very speculative
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:24 AM   #59
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What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

I didn't see anyone suggest a "3rd man walking" button itt.

That seems like it would solve all of OPs problems. 3rd person to leave a full table gets a short time to leave and come back or they are auto picked up. Basically, 3rd man walking should be going to the bathroom/quick smoke break/running to their car/etc and coming right back

It is literally a rule specifically targeting OPs problem and to prevent games from breaking


Op, ultimately, you should go talk to the poker room manager and express your concerns and suggest ways that the problems could be mitigated. Also, if you are friendly with other players and they feel the same, have them also talk to the manager. And keep doing it. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:11 AM   #60
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

You gonna pick them up when there's no list?
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:28 AM   #61
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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You gonna pick them up when there's no list?


Sure, why not?

Worst case, they come back, there is an empty seat and they sit back down. Best case, someone comes and takes the seat before they come back.

Or if it's a time when there isn't a lot of traffic, say like midweek, early AM. No reason why the dealer can't throw out a 3rd man walking button, then 10 minutes later (or whatever the time is), if there is no list, they throw a lamer there too. If someone happens to walk in before the player gets back, the stack gets picked up. If no one comes in, then the stack is there for the walker
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:58 AM   #62
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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I didn't see anyone suggest a "3rd man walking" button itt.

That seems like it would solve all of OPs problems. 3rd person to leave a full table gets a short time to leave and come back or they are auto picked up. Basically, 3rd man walking should be going to the bathroom/quick smoke break/running to their car/etc and coming right back

It is literally a rule specifically targeting OPs problem and to prevent games from breaking


Op, ultimately, you should go talk to the poker room manager and express your concerns and suggest ways that the problems could be mitigated. Also, if you are friendly with other players and they feel the same, have them also talk to the manager. And keep doing it. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
3rd man walking is a horrible rule. First it punishes the wrong player ... The one who has been gone for the shortest time. Second it 8s terrible to administer, a dealer gets involved in a big hand counting bets, answering questions whatever ... Looks up and suddenly two more players have left the game ... One of them was third man .... Which one ?
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:03 AM   #63
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

Lobbying fees are better IMO. Local room does $5/orbit.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:55 PM   #64
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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Lobbying fees are better IMO. Local room does $5/orbit.
I like it. Money in the pot or to the house?
Can't imagine how taking money from a players stack while he's away got approved.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:25 PM   #65
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

It's what they do at commerce. You get 2 orbits away, once the button passes you the secondd time they take 5 from your stack and put it in the pot. You can also ask for a 45 minute food break every 6ish hours. Doesn't apply if the table is short handed (annoyingly).

Works OK to eliminate long term Walkers, but people just get good at coming back every 2 orbits for an orbit.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:54 PM   #66
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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That's very speculative
I don’t think so. What would you do if you were floor and that player asked to be seated?
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:08 PM   #67
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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I didn't see anyone suggest a "3rd man walking" button itt.
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Harrah’s Philly has a “third man walking” rule. If you get up from the table and there are already two players walking, you get ten minutes before your chips are bagged. Fourth player gives up his seat immediately.

I’ve suggested many times in AC that they institute a third man walking rule. I remember one game in the old Showboat at a full table where, one by one, people got up to walk until we were down to four players. We asked to be moved to other tables so the walkers returned to find the table broken up. I remember playing at one full table that, for several hours, never had more than five people actually playing. As a player, it’s frustrating to have to wait an hour or more for a seat while watching a table that’s only half full. Or playing at a table that’s only half full while there’s a waiting list.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:17 PM   #68
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Lobbying fees are better IMO. Local room does $5/orbit.
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It's what they do at commerce. You get 2 orbits away, once the button passes you the secondd time they take 5 from your stack and put it in the pot. You can also ask for a 45 minute food break every 6ish hours. Doesn't apply if the table is short handed (annoyingly).

Works OK to eliminate long term Walkers, but people just get good at coming back every 2 orbits for an orbit.
Sounds like it doesn’t do much to address the problem of a table forced to play short handed while people on the waiting list stand around and watch.

Does it help at all? I’ve never heard of it before
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:29 PM   #69
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

It helps in that you don't get people walking for 1:25 at a time. But it doesn't help when 4+ people decide to walk at the same time. At commerce at least this usually causes the game to stop until 6 or more are back and ready.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:33 PM   #70
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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I don’t think so. What would you do if you were floor and that player asked to be seated?
The part that is speculative is the part about "if another player comes before they get back" .... See you are asking us to pickup a player speculating that this circumstance will arise. You are also speculating about much longer they will be away

The answer to what would I do as a floor in your hypothetical. Well if the walkers are subject to being picked up according our rules ... Then I pick up that player only when I have somebody to take that seat. If they are not subject to being picked up I don't pick them up at all and seat the player in game with open seats.

I'm not going to pick them up with no one to take the seat because it's unnecessary and it makes it less likely the player will continue playing when they return. And every time you handle someone's chips while they are not present increases the risk of theft or perception of theft.(while I'm not going to steal ... If I'm the manager I want to have procedures that minimize opportunities for employees to steal.... And minimize the amount of times I have to deal with players who 'are positive they had more chips than that when they left the table).
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:14 PM   #71
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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Sounds like it doesn’t do much to address the problem of a table forced to play short handed while people on the waiting list stand around and watch.

Does it help at all? I’ve never heard of it before
I mean it depends on how you define "help."

Does it punish people who insist on being away for long stretches? Yes.

Does it reward people who are willing to play short? Yes.

To that end, I think it's wonderful.

But you are probably asking different questions, like: Does it make the average number of active players per table increase, because people hurry back to avoid the lobbying charge; or does the average number of active players decrease, because people would rather rack up to avoid the lobbying charge; or do those two cancel each other out and leave minimal effect? That, I have no data with which to answer. I would guess it varies by poker culture - here in the SFBA people tend to be less hangouty at casinos, people typically come to play; elsewhere where people go hang out at a casino without playing, maybe they'd be more prone to pick up.

There are no HUGE differences in peoples' behaviors.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:57 PM   #72
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

I think the best idea would be to have a 3rd man walking rule where you aggressively pick up the first walker. But I imagine the walkers would protest so much that it wouldn't last for long.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:49 PM   #73
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

It would be troublesome to have a player not know how long he has before being picked up at the time he leaves the table. The real issue is simply people who abuse the ability to leave the table for long periods of time, multiple times per session. These jackholes should get a 5 minute clock no matter which man walking they are.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:18 AM   #74
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

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The real issue is simply people who abuse the ability to leave the table for long periods of time, multiple times per session. These jackholes should get a 5 minute clock no matter which man walking they are.
99% of poker players have financial incentive to play as little as possible. So forcing them to play is going to be an uphill battle regardless of the method.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:53 AM   #75
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Re: What's Up with the Meal Button and Walkers?

They used to call people back to the table at the Bicycle club in California. That wouldn't work at a place with a huge casino where players might be out of the range of the PA system though.

Of course you can't force anyone to play, but you could start picking people up more aggressively, especially for repeat offenders. Unfortunately, though everyone knows who those players are, it is tough to define them, as they always come back just in time to avoid being picked up.
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