I was playing 2-5 plo the other night when this hand occurred. Button straddles $10, small blind folds, big blind calls $10, I make it $40 with 66810, 2 callers for $40 when button straddle raises to $80. Big blind calls, I call and 2 other callers, 5 to the flop. Flop comes out 964. Big blind who is first to act says “pot” immediately when seeing flop . About $430 in the pot and I have $750 behind. After a slight hesitation after he announced “pot”, I announce all in. He all of a sudden says,” oh I was asking how much was in the pot, not announcing to bet the pot”. I have been playing plo a long time and when someone says “pot” that is to bet the pot any other time I have encountered it. The dealer then says, he was only asking how much is in the pot. The player hems and haws and says how much more is it after everyone else folded. Made a spectacle of it. He then proceeds to call and roll over 99810. I’m drawing to back door clubs and quads, end up losing the hand. After the hand is over a few other players then ask the dealer if she really thought he didn’t want to pot it after he rolls over top set. I’m not really concerned about the outcome of the hand, mainly curious what everyone thinks about his intentions of saying “pot”.

I think saying "POT" should always mean "I bet the pot". Asking "How much is the pot?" should be the only way you are asking that question. Sounds like an angle to me.

You should have asked for the floor. That is a binding bet all day.
KITN to villain for even trying to argue that it was a question and even bigger KITN to the dealer for allowing it.

There were multiple times on the night where he counted out calling chips and started forward motion and then stopped right before the line and then started shuffling them again. When he did it, my first thought was him angling trying to get one of the other 3 in the pot as well like I caught him bluffing when I shoved.

You got angled. Call the floor next time. Also hope they educate or fire the dealer.

The dealer saying he asked how much in the pot by saying word pot is terrible.

You can't have people doing the same things that have a different meaning for each person. I've read on here claims of "oh he tapped the table with his left hand, that means HE's thinking, not checking..."

You got slow-rolled, not angled, although you're right it could have been an angle against other players.

It seems like people like this infest the PLO games much more than other game types, which is why I hate playing PLO.

This is something that happens in all games. Pot? Is a question but when it is verbalized that can be confusion.

Same thing with check? Bet? Or raise?

It's not necessarily an angle it could be a misunderstanding.

It could be an angle by either player. The one who says it, or by a player who truly understands it but claims it wasn't a question.

I often suggest to players asking these questions to avoid these words and speak full sentences ... But I'm often ignored

Lol call floor, this is never allowed

It's not difficult to formulate a simple sentence that is clearly a question and not a declaration

Also lots of dealers have little experience dealing plo so you can't let an angler use one as a crutch

BB is a dick. Meant to bet pot when he said pot.

BB may have been trying to pretend he was weak in hopes of getting more callers?

BB was definitely calling. After everyone else folds, he's now and slow rolling douche for the show.

Saying "Pot!" in turn in a PL game is a binding action, regardless of intent. Even if intended or said as a question, with an upward inflection, "Pot?" (which you do not indicate was the case here, anyway) will (or should) always be ruled as a bet, especially if it induces action. (It's analogous to saying "Call?" instead of "Did he call?".) Dealer was wrong.

In regard to his intent, I would say 99% he initially intended a bet. But when you shoved, he angled. He not only wanted you allin (hence the later hemming and hawing), but IMO he was probably attempting to angle the other players into calling your bet.

BB was trying to get more $$ in the pot. He was angling the rest of the table, not so much OP. Maybe he wanted to block the RIT by getting someone else into the pot? (We have that rule in one place I play ... No RIT when three-handed)

OP could've angled right back and told the Player that 'all in' is not a legal bet in PLO in some rooms, even when a Player knows he has less that a pot-sized bet behind.

Obviously this guy has top set with straight 'blockers' and really only needs to fade a flush draw.

IMO the single word 'pot' should correlate to 'all-in' and expose a Player to the maximum possible bet size. GL

When he said “pot”, it was definitely just saying the word pot, not in a questioning tone at all. Also as he said pot he grabbed a full stack of green in his hand as if he was just awaiting the official count from the dealer. He definitely slow rolled me which was a dick move but my main concern was him angling the other three players in the pot. He was definitely trying to get a 44xx in the pot who may have thought he made a mistake. He was definitely only concerned about flush draws with his blockers to the straight.

The other guy is an angling chode.


Agree that the only way to ask how much is in the pot is to say verbatim (and maybe even point to the middle of the table) "how much is in the pot?"

Player is committed to a pot sized bet.

Except it isn't in reality. It might be the way you feel the game should be played ....

But just like the player who asks "all-in?" Or the guy who checks by wiggling his finger the reality of how the game is played is different from who you would design it.

Anyone who asks "all in?" should be held to a bet of all in. They would learn their lesson quickly and then these types of problems would go away.

So if a player says "all-in?" And everyone at the table including the dealer understands it as a question ... You think the player should be held to an all in bet?

Why would that be fair? Do you think that would make a new player feel they are being treated fairly?

And the problem still doesn't go away because it doesn't stop all the time so a player says he said "is he all-in?" But others only hear all-in.

The problem would go away because the player would never show up again if he was held to an all-in even though everybody else at the table knew he was asking a question.

Making all questions like that binding action would allow for a totally different set of angles. Player A wants the river to check through so he makes a weird move with his hands, hoping for player B to ask the dealer “check?”.

I agree 100% that players shouldn’t use action words that way, but in reality especially newer players get confused easily and don’t think before asking in the heat of the moment.

If no one has acted, "all in?" is a bet.

Why? Suppose a player is second to act. He thinks he might have heard the first player say something ... He thinks it was "all in" but he isn't sure. So he asks "all-in?" And he is clear and everyone there understands he is asking a question ...


Why should this be a bet?

I personally don't care much either way because I am able to communicate properly verbally and I ask questions if I am at all unclear about the action. (And the questions I ask cannot be mistaken as binding action.)

But to answer your question, it probably should be a bet because it's rarely 100% clear that someone is asking a question versus making a statement. In my experience, when people say "pot" or "all in," their tone and delivery are all over the place. There is a not-at-all-insignificant percentage of the time where I 100% would think the person is asking a question when they're not.

Of course the dealer should clarify anytime there's any question about what's going on, but players could do a lot better as a group with this kind of stuff and a policy change might help to give them a nudge in the right direction.

IMO, action should still be on player that said "Pot?".

Why?
Read the thread.
Per OP, he didn't say, "Pot?" (as a question), but simply stated "Pot". In general, this should always be a bet. (Even asking "Pot?" could be ruled as a bet.) But in OP, given the hands and board, and subsequent action, ruling it a question is simply enabling an obvious angle.

I have no problem holding the player to a bet when his poor choice of words leads to confusion that will harm another player if the bet is not enforced. I certainly agree with you that players should take care to be clear. I just don't see the value to putting a players stack at risk in the situation I presented where everyone at the table understood he was asking a question.

I disagree with your beliefs that these things are misunderstood most of the time ... It's just that when everybody understands there is no reason for people to notice and recall it. We only recall the instances that cause arguments and floor calls.

b/c if I ask how much is in the pot, the next guy doesn't get to act until I check, bet or fold
same
per the dealer