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08-07-2018 , 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by psandman
So if a player says "all-in?" And everyone at the table including the dealer understands it as a question ... You think the player should be held to an all in bet?

Why would that be fair? Do you think that would make a new player feel they are being treated fairly?

And the problem still doesn't go away because it doesn't stop all the time so a player says he said "is he all-in?" But others only hear all-in.
If someone says "is he all in?", I think it should still be a bet. For the reason you just noted, because someone might hear only the end.

If someone says "did he check?", it should also be a binding check if that is a valid action for him to take at that time.

Just put a big sign up by the brush telling players not to use action words unless they are meaning to take that action, along with a list of the words. Again, I think everyone would learn very quickly. It's 100% fair as long as the same rules apply to everyone.

Picture a casino newbie playing blackjack for the first time with a full table and he decides to put $100 down without really understanding how it works. He hears the person to his right say "hit" and isn't sure what that means, so asks "hit?" Or he taps the table by accident while he is thinking. The dealer deals another card and the player busts. Do you think he should be able to claim he wasn't adding for another card? Do you think the casino should take the hit card back? So you think they will? If they don't, they risk scaring him away from ever playing at the casino again, but I am sure they will take that risk. The player is an adult who chose to risk his money in a game where he didn't understand the rules. He is likely to lose his money, and I don't feel bad about it.
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08-07-2018 , 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by iamthepush
b/c if I ask how much is in the pot, the next guy doesn't get to act until I check, bet or fold...
Of course true, if you do ask. (But 5 extra words make a big difference here.)
In a PL game, the word "Pot" is an action. So if you are just asking, you'd better make it completely clear somehow. Saying only "Pot", even with an upward inflection, is much more likely to be taken as a bet than as a question, especially if it induces action, as in OP.
Dealer only spoke up after OP had already acted and Villain claimed to have only asked. Whatever the dealer thought, OP certainly took it as a bet.
I have seen this type of dispute a bunch of times in PLO, and floors almost always rule it a bet if asked to rule. They almost have to, because the alternative is to let you say something ambiguous, and then let you decide whether or not you have acted, with all options open, depending on reactions from the other players. (Essential angle.)
If you want to test this out, I suggest you try it out in live PLO games a few times. Say "Pot" when action is on you in a big pot, let someone else act, then maintain that you were only asking the pot size, and should have all options open, even though other(s) have acted, and let us know how that comes out.

Last edited by MJ88; 08-07-2018 at 01:25 PM.
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08-07-2018 , 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chillrob
If someone says "is he all in?", I think it should still be a bet. For the reason you just noted, because someone might hear only the end.

If someone says "did he check?", it should also be a binding check if that is a valid action for him to take at that time.

Just put a big sign up by the brush telling players not to use action words unless they are meaning to take that action, along with a list of the words. Again, I think everyone would learn very quickly.

Picture a casino newbie playing blackjack for the first time with a full table and he decides to put $100 without really understanding how it works. He hears the person to his right say "hit" and isn't sure what that means, so asks "hit?" Or he taps the table by accident while he is thinking. The dealer deals another card and the player busts.
But I am talking about the scenario where the dealer understands the player is asking a question and therefore doesn't put up another card and now a discussion ensues and the action is clarified before the card is dealt.

I don't disagree with the premise that if you use the word and cause a problem you should be the one who gets the worst of it. And in the OPs case it may be this situation. However holding a player to an action you know he didn't want to take because he used a "Magic word" in a context that no one understood as action is not the same thing
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08-07-2018 , 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by psandman
But I am talking about the scenario where the dealer understands the player is asking a question and therefore doesn't put up another card and now a discussion ensues and the action is clarified before the card is dealt.

I don't disagree with the premise that if you use the word and cause a problem you should be the one who gets the worst of it. And in the OPs case it may be this situation. However holding a player to an action you know he didn't want to take because he used a "Magic word" in a context that no one understood as action is not the same thing
Don't know why you're talking about a kind of scenario that is different from the OP.

And you're using your judgment about what "no one understood".
In most contexts, poker rules are interpreted based on actual words or actions made by players, not on what may be understood by the dealer or other players.
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08-07-2018 , 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by chillrob
Don't know why you're talking about a kind of scenario that is different from the OP.

And you're using your judgment about what "no one understood".
In most contexts, poker rules are interpreted based on actual words or actions made by players, not on what may be understood by the dealer or other players.
The reason I'm talking about a different scenario was in response to the posts saying that use of these words regardless of context should be strictly enforced.

Context (including inflection) is inherently part of communication and it makes no sense to pretend otherwise.

Suppose the action gets to a player who was talking to his wife, she starts to leave and he says "ok honey I'll call you when I'm done playing." If you are going to hold him to a call because he said the word call in that sentence you aren't playing poker you are playing some sort of word gotcha. This is no different. If the player says pot? And you know it was a question ..... Holding him to a pot sized bet or raise is just playing word gotcha. If you don't understand it as a question and then you act .... Well hey that's his problem he should have been more clear let him bear the brunt of it...
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08-07-2018 , 01:55 PM
To me there is a bigger difference between a player talking to his wife and using the word call and any of these other examples than the difference between saying "pot" and "pot?". However, if that was the rule and it was enforced consistently, I would have no problem with being held to a call if I were careless enough to say that.
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08-07-2018 , 01:59 PM
I don't really play PLO so am not familiar with all the common rules. If the room doesn't allow the dealer to count the poor on demand, then there is no reason for the word "pot" to mean anything other than a bet.

If asking for a count is allowed, then maybe "pot" should not be a magic action word, and players should be required to say "bet" or "raise" for it to be a valid action.
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08-07-2018 , 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by chillrob
I don't really play PLO so am not familiar with all the common rules. If the room doesn't allow the dealer to count the poor on demand, then there is no reason for the word "pot" to mean anything other than a bet.

If asking for a count is allowed, then maybe "pot" should not be a magic action word, and players should be required to say "bet" or "raise" for it to be a valid action.
Dealers can tell players how much is in the pot in pot limit games.
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08-07-2018 , 02:59 PM
Aren't you not allowed to "spread the pot" in PLO? so this guy had 1 intention which was clearly to POT it. Especially considering his holding this was an angle shoot. Should def have called floor.
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08-07-2018 , 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MJ88
Of course true, if you do ask. (But 5 extra words make a big difference here.)
In a PL game, the word "Pot" is an action. So if you are just asking, you'd better make it completely clear somehow. Saying only "Pot", even with an upward inflection, is much more likely to be taken as a bet than as a question, especially if it induces action, as in OP.
Dealer only spoke up after OP had already acted and Villain claimed to have only asked. Whatever the dealer thought, OP certainly took it as a bet.
I have seen this type of dispute a bunch of times in PLO, and floors almost always rule it a bet if asked to rule. They almost have to, because the alternative is to let you say something ambiguous, and then let you decide whether or not you have acted, with all options open, depending on reactions from the other players. (Essential angle.)
If you want to test this out, I suggest you try it out in live PLO games a few times. Say "Pot" when action is on you in a big pot, let someone else act, then maintain that you were only asking the pot size, and should have all options open, even though other(s) have acted, and let us know how that comes out.
There's a difference between what is and what should be. The dealer heard "Pot?" and let the OP act. Action should have been backed up to "Mr. Pot?" and we need to go from there.

It didn't so "Mr Pot?" actually bet the pot. Dealer just threw up some smoke screen to help confuse the situation.
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08-07-2018 , 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperSwag
Aren't you not allowed to "spread the pot" in PLO? so this guy had 1 intention which was clearly to POT it. Especially considering his holding this was an angle shoot. Should def have called floor.
in 8 or better the dealers actually start making 2 even stacks during the hand.
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08-07-2018 , 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperSwag
Aren't you not allowed to "spread the pot" in PLO? so this guy had 1 intention which was clearly to POT it. Especially considering his holding this was an angle shoot. Should def have called floor.
Why would you spread the pot. The dealer should know the pot and tell you.
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08-07-2018 , 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by psandman
Why would you spread the pot. The dealer should know the pot and tell you.
You should know the POT or have a close estimate of what pot is.
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08-07-2018 , 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by eastcoastgrinder
You should know the POT or have a close estimate of what pot is.
Yes.... But for some reason many players don't
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08-07-2018 , 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 4ACESRS
I was playing 2-5 plo the other night when this hand occurred. Button straddles $10, small blind folds, big blind calls $10, I make it $40 with 66810, 2 callers for $40 when button straddle raises to $80. Big blind calls, I call and 2 other callers, 5 to the flop. Flop comes out 964. Big blind who is first to act says “pot” immediately when seeing flop . About $430 in the pot and I have $750 behind. After a slight hesitation after he announced “pot”, I announce all in. He all of a sudden says,” oh I was asking how much was in the pot, not announcing to bet the pot”. I have been playing plo a long time and when someone says “pot” that is to bet the pot any other time I have encountered it. The dealer then says, he was only asking how much is in the pot. The player hems and haws and says how much more is it after everyone else folded. Made a spectacle of it. He then proceeds to call and roll over 99810. I’m drawing to back door clubs and quads, end up losing the hand. After the hand is over a few other players then ask the dealer if she really thought he didn’t want to pot it after he rolls over top set. I’m not really concerned about the outcome of the hand, mainly curious what everyone thinks about his intentions of saying “pot”.
Since "POT" is one of the most important word in PLO one should never mistake it for a question of how much is in the pot. The reason this person behave this way is because no one has call him out on this type of scumbag behavior before. The PLO community as a whole need to speak up and villified this type of arse hole and let them know that it is not acceptable. As the game is gaining popularity we need to create an environment that is fun and not scummy angle shooting.
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08-07-2018 , 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MJ88
Of course true, if you do ask. (But 5 extra words make a big difference here.)
In a PL game, the word "Pot" is an action. So if you are just asking, you'd better make it completely clear somehow. Saying only "Pot", even with an upward inflection, is much more likely to be taken as a bet than as a question, especially if it induces action, as in OP.
Dealer only spoke up after OP had already acted and Villain claimed to have only asked. Whatever the dealer thought, OP certainly took it as a bet.
I have seen this type of dispute a bunch of times in PLO, and floors almost always rule it a bet if asked to rule. They almost have to, because the alternative is to let you say something ambiguous, and then let you decide whether or not you have acted, with all options open, depending on reactions from the other players. (Essential angle.)
If you want to test this out, I suggest you try it out in live PLO games a few times. Say "Pot" when action is on you in a big pot, let someone else act, then maintain that you were only asking the pot size, and should have all options open, even though other(s) have acted, and let us know how that comes out.
I definitely agree. Over the course of several hours of play, there were several times when a player asked how much was in the pot, none of them by point blank saying “pot”. It was typically along the lines of “ how much is in the pot”. That is night and day compared to how the bb announced. Also, this is a 2-5 plo game which where I play can typically have most stacks several thousand deep on most nights. These players are well aware what they are doing. Also like I stated earlier, it aggravated several players who were not even in the hand. The dealer is a very experienced dealer so I was surprised when she said that. Hopefully when she saw him roll over top set, she realized her mistake. To me, it was an angle all the way, not against me, but the other players in the hand.
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08-07-2018 , 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 4ACESRS
I definitely agree. Over the course of several hours of play, there were several times when a player asked how much was in the pot, none of them by point blank saying “pot”. It was typically along the lines of “ how much is in the pot”. That is night and day compared to how the bb announced. Also, this is a 2-5 plo game which where I play can typically have most stacks several thousand deep on most nights. These players are well aware what they are doing. Also like I stated earlier, it aggravated several players who were not even in the hand. The dealer is a very experienced dealer so I was surprised when she said that. Hopefully when she saw him roll over top set, she realized her mistake. To me, it was an angle all the way, not against me, but the other players in the hand.
Did he check and you pot it or did he end up potting it and you went all in? This is where I'm confused.
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08-08-2018 , 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by iamthepush
Did he check and you pot it or did he end up potting it and you went all in? This is where I'm confused.
He announced “pot” and then I moved all in. After I moved all in is when he said he only wanted to know what was in the pot and not bet the pot. After he said this the dealer said he was only asking what was in the pot. The bb was complaining the whole time back and forth. I said there is no way that was not a bet and then several others at the table said the same that it was a bet. As the bb continues to complain, he puts out the pot sized bet as if he was forced to do something that was a mistake. He continued to complain after I was all in as there were still 3 players to act. He continued to angle the other 3 players as if he had no kind of hand at all and was forced to bet a hand he didn’t want to commit any more chips with. After the other 3 folded, he turned from angle mode to slow roll mode. With over $860 in the pot and me only having a little over $300 more for him to call, he continued to complain about him having to bet the pot and kept asking how much more when he clearly saw I had 3 red stacks left. After waiting more than a minute he finally puts in calling chips and rolls over top set. After the hand several players complained to the dealer that she clearly knew his original intention was betting pot before the cards were turned over but really should know after he turned his hand up.
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08-08-2018 , 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 4ACESRS
He announced “pot” and then I moved all in. After I moved all in is when he said he only wanted to know what was in the pot and not bet the pot. After he said this the dealer said he was only asking what was in the pot. The bb was complaining the whole time back and forth. I said there is no way that was not a bet and then several others at the table said the same that it was a bet. As the bb continues to complain, he puts out the pot sized bet as if he was forced to do something that was a mistake. He continued to complain after I was all in as there were still 3 players to act. He continued to angle the other 3 players as if he had no kind of hand at all and was forced to bet a hand he didn’t want to commit any more chips with. After the other 3 folded, he turned from angle mode to slow roll mode. With over $860 in the pot and me only having a little over $300 more for him to call, he continued to complain about him having to bet the pot and kept asking how much more when he clearly saw I had 3 red stacks left. After waiting more than a minute he finally puts in calling chips and rolls over top set. After the hand several players complained to the dealer that she clearly knew his original intention was betting pot before the cards were turned over but really should know after he turned his hand up.
The angling here is really obvious (and pretty slimy).
I'm guessing that the dealer originally just took the player at his word re intent, and was trying to avoid conflict.
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08-08-2018 , 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MJ88
The angling here is really obvious (and pretty slimy).
I'm guessing that the dealer originally just took the player at his word re intent, and was trying to avoid conflict.
Not necessarily.

Suppose dealer believes the player was asking the pot size and was about to Answer and OP insta announces all-in. It would look just like this. Now if OP takes his time, then I would agree the fact that the dealer didn't answer the question would lead to believe you were correct that the dealer did not originally think it was a question.
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08-08-2018 , 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by psandman
Not necessarily.

Suppose dealer believes the player was asking the pot size and was about to Answer and OP insta announces all-in. It would look just like this. Now if OP takes his time, then I would agree the fact that the dealer didn't answer the question would lead to believe you were correct that the dealer did not originally think it was a question.
Sure, that's why I said I was guessing.
I just think that if OP and most of the other players at the table took it as a bet, not a question, then it seems unlikely (though possible) that the dealer heard or saw something which indicated a question. It's also possible that the dealer didn't even process until OP called, and Villain then objected, and she was just accepting his word for his intent, until OP and others disagreed.

Last edited by MJ88; 08-08-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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08-08-2018 , 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MJ88
Sure, that's why I said I was guessing.
I just think that if OP and most of the other players at the table took it as a bet, not a question, then it seems unlikely (though possible) that the dealer heard or saw something which indicated a question. It's also possible that the dealer didn't even process until OP called, and Villain then objected, and she was just accepting his word for his intent.
But there are a lot of people here arguing it doesn't matter how it's said. So perhaps the people at the table are agreeing because they think it's irrrelevant. Perhaps they are agreeing because they don't like the guy. I don't know ... But before we call the dealer a liar let's say we don't know what's in his mind either and say it's a possibility he is covering up, and a possibility he is calling it like he heard it.
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08-08-2018 , 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MJ88
The angling here is really obvious (and pretty slimy).
It would take the floor who no one called, but wouldn't the Rule #1 solution be "OK, you were asking a question. The shove goes back because it was an invalid action and out of turn, action's on the angling slimeball, check or bet."?

Not that his "question" was anything but a pot bet, but if there's a KITN solution that gives the rest of the players full options to indulge his angling or not, isn't that best?
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