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Old 11-26-2017, 09:59 AM   #1
ldb
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Post What is proper showdown procedure?

The dealers at my local casino are trained to verbalize or highlight the value of hands as they are shown. In my view this is not fair to the player at showdown who has been bluffing all along.
Example; Player A was the last to bet and therefore has to show first ( no issues here ). Player B misreads player A's hand and is about to fold.Dealer announces 10 high which causes player B to have a second look and thus scoop the pot with a better hand.
My Question is; Should the dealers be influencing the natural flow of the game in this way?
I should say that I don't have a problem in helping with the reading of hands once all live hands are face up. Only with announcing the value while another is considering a fold.
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:34 AM   #2
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Tabled card can (and should) be announced. Commentary on the cards 'Ten high, anyone have a J?' are not allowed, but absolutely announcing a tabled hand is part of the correct showdown procedures. They are not influencing action, they are making sure the game is being run correctly.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:02 PM   #3
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Proper procedure is whatever the room says it is in this case. Some require hands be announced as they are shown, some only announce the winner, some don't announce at all.

I personally prefer rooms do it as yours does. Poker should not be a game that requires perfect eyesight to play.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:02 PM   #4
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldb View Post
The dealers at my local casino are trained to verbalize or highlight the value of hands as they are shown. In my view this is not fair to the player at showdown who has been bluffing all along.
Example; Player A was the last to bet and therefore has to show first ( no issues here ). Player B misreads player A's hand and is about to fold.Dealer announces 10 high which causes player B to have a second look and thus scoop the pot with a better hand.
My Question is; Should the dealers be influencing the natural flow of the game in this way?
I should say that I don't have a problem in helping with the reading of hands once all live hands are face up. Only with announcing the value while another is considering a fold.
Once any hand is tabled, the dealer (or other players, for that matter) can and should go ahead and read it. Waiting until all hands have been tabled or mucked before any are read is an unnecessary waste of time. Hoping to win because someone who called your bluff might misread your hand and muck (not "fold", btw -- you can't fold at showdown) is bush-league.
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:20 PM   #5
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

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Originally Posted by ldb View Post
In my view this is not fair to the player at showdown who has been bluffing all along.
You're wrong.
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:12 PM   #6
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Showdown isn't 6th street. You can't bluff.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:02 PM   #7
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Proper procedure is whatever the room says it is in this case. Some require hands be announced as they are shown, some only announce the winner, some don't announce at all.

I personally prefer rooms do it as yours does. Poker should not be a game that requires perfect eyesight to play.
I've seen dealers announce for example when asked what another players has...
player shows 10h 8d rather than announcing that the player has 10 high.This to me is a better way.
Is it not the opposing players obligation to figure out the value of the tabled hand?
I've seen it done both ways.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:05 PM   #8
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

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Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
Showdown isn't 6th street. You can't bluff.
Showdown is also defined as " completion of all betting, ALL remaining players show their cards, and the winner of the pot is determined.
I just don't think the dealer should be drawing attention to the value of my hand or any hand til all hands are tabled or mucked
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:32 PM   #9
Noles1724
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

I ran into a showdown procedure last night.. not the same as OP is describing but half way relevant nonetheless..interested what the forums' thought is here.

UTG limps
Button raises
UTG calls
Checks all the way to the river

Who has to show first? Two thoughts from the table.

1. Button has to show because his action/bet was called initially.
2. UTG has to show because each street is a new set of actions.. thus the UTGs river check was "called" when the button checked.

Personally I thought it's number two. Just seems that this would be filed under the positional advantage category.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:50 PM   #10
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Depends on the room rules. In most places it is by position, in some it is last aggressor from previous streets. There are a billion threads about this if you search.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:53 PM   #11
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldb View Post
Is it not the opposing players obligation to figure out the value of the tabled hand?
No, cards speak. That is why a dealer may read the tabled hands final value.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:58 PM   #12
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Every room will have its own procedures on what dealers do when a hand gets tabled. Some will announce the hand and continue to announce better hands as they get turned over. Others will push board cards up that go with the hand tabled (that's what my room does except in Omaha). Others will not do anything until all hands are tabled or mucked and then push the pot. None of these procedures are wrong.
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:10 PM   #13
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

I prefer dealer announcing hands as they are turned over. Sometimes a dealer moves pretty fast, and it helps the table catch mistakes.
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:35 PM   #14
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

This is a standard 'room rules apply' question .. lots of opinion with not a lot of consistency across the board.

I personally don't think a Dealer should read the hands until all the hands are tabled, but I also agree that it would slow the game down. I think most Dealers are very aware of a 'in turn' player's body language and offer up what the exposed hand's value happens to be in order to move things along.

We've had other threads about this even pulling into account the pushing of cards on the Board to help an opponent 'see' the exposed hand's value.

Once again, I would prefer nobody at the table 'read' a hand until all hands are tabled. Once they are tabled, as always, it's up to the table to make sure the best hand gets pushed the pot. GL
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:32 PM   #15
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

I really don't understand your gripe. Seems like a borderline angle imo. As others have said, once you are at showdown, cards speak, the game is over.

I think the spirit of the game and possibly even the rules make this clear, a tabled hand should be read, announced, and if it's the current winning hand, should be displayed (dealer should push "up" the 5 cards that make the hand) until a stronger hand is shown.

We have been spoiled by efforts to speed up the game in modern poker, and many people place too much value on "not showing", but the correct procedure is shown in every online log and in any well done movie (not to mention well-run card rooms).

"Player A shows 10-8 for High card 2,6,7,8,10"
"Player B shows 6-7 for Two-pair 6,6,7,7,5"
or
"Player B mucks (does not show)"

As was stated before, folding is not an option at showdown (only muck). The game is over and cards speak. You can hope that the bluffed player will "fold", but don't get mad at the dealer for attempting to make sure the best hand wins at showdown.

I believe this is reinforced by the common rules that two cards must be shown to win a pot, and in tournaments all hands must be shown when all-in at showdown.

Last edited by Locked; 11-27-2017 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:19 PM   #16
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

I just want to state that while I don't think the dealer reading the hand as "ten high" if that really is his hand, it is very rare for this to be the case; this would only be true if the board was unpaired and had no cards above a nine (or making hero a pair or straight). If there is a pair on the board, the dealer should be reading the hand as "pair of...", if there is an ace on the board, he should be reading it as "ace high...", etc. Going out of his way to make it perfectly clear that the bettor basically has nothing is being too helpful to the caller.

Locked just gave this example:
"Player A shows 10-8 for High card 2,6,7,8,10"
But it is actually impossible for that combination to ever be the player's best 5 card hand.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:24 AM   #17
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

I was playing in a game a few weeks ago when the board ran out with a 9-high straight on board. I tabled my JJ immediately after river went x/x, dealer doesn't announce anything at first, the guy pauses for a bit and double checks his cards, my cards, and the board, then the dealer says "he's playing the board" to the other guy. Idk if the guy was going to muck or not, but it definitely tilted me when it happened.
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:00 AM   #18
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by football0020 View Post
I was playing in a game a few weeks ago when the board ran out with a 9-high straight on board. I tabled my JJ immediately after river went x/x, dealer doesn't announce anything at first, the guy pauses for a bit and double checks his cards, my cards, and the board, then the dealer says "he's playing the board" to the other guy. Idk if the guy was going to muck or not, but it definitely tilted me when it happened.
Exactly the type of situation I'm talking about. I've had the same thing happen where opponent was in the process of forward motion mucking when the dealer announced "straight on board". Very tilting indeed.
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:10 AM   #19
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldb View Post
Exactly the type of situation I'm talking about. I've had the same thing happen where opponent was in the process of forward motion mucking when the dealer announced "straight on board". Very tilting indeed.
There is a difference between announcing the hand (9 high strauight) and providing commentary on hand (Straight on the board). I think most people would agree that any comment that reflects the relative strength of a players holding is inappropriate, but simply announcing the tabled hand is not (unless the room has a rule against it)
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:09 AM   #20
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

I've never understood this "rite of passage" feeling that everyone has about this sort of situation. If the only way you are getting winning money from a player that isn't good enough to notice that it's a chop, I guess maybe it's worth making them feel like an idiot when someone tells them after the hand that they made a mistake?

Just chop it up and move on.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:05 PM   #21
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldb View Post
Exactly the type of situation I'm talking about. I've had the same thing happen where opponent was in the process of forward motion mucking when the dealer announced "straight on board". Very tilting indeed.
That's not "exactly the type of situation" you were talking about. You were talking about a dealer reading a hand. "The board" is not a hand. A nine-high straight is a hand. So the dealer is supposed to announce nine-high straight.

FWIW, "forward motion mucking" isn't a real thing in any well run card room.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:15 PM   #22
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

It's a completely different situation, I'd say. Come on OP.
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:59 PM   #23
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ldb View Post
Player B misreads player A's hand and is about to fold.Dealer announces 10 high which causes player B to have a second look and thus scoop the pot with a better hand.
What exactly is the problem you have with the best hand winning? Any good dealer will announce the best tabled hand and then continue to only announce better hands as they are tabled. This is how it should be done. Stop trying to pull one over on other players. These are generally the new(ish) players that you want to keep happy anyway. Making them feel dumb when they realize what they did afterwards will not help your bottom line.
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Old 11-28-2017, 02:08 PM   #24
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Locked just gave this example:
"Player A shows 10-8 for High card 2,6,7,8,10"
But it is actually impossible for that combination to ever be the player's best 5 card hand.
Board 2,3,4,6,7
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Old 11-28-2017, 02:17 PM   #25
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Re: What is proper showdown procedure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post

Locked just gave this example:
"Player A shows 10-8 for High card 2,6,7,8,10"
But it is actually impossible for that combination to ever be the player's best 5 card hand.
Board 2,3,4,6,7

Then his best 5 card hand would be: 4 6 7 8 10
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