A) 9 handed PLO - 1 box card preflop and as dealer goes to last flop card, he finds 2 more box cards, 1 normal down card and another box card.

Floor called, ruled them all into the muck and flop came out. Most of the table said floor made wrong ruling (should have been reshuffled on flop, void hand, split pot etc). I wasn't in the hand but thought the ruling was correct. Right or wrong?

B)What happens if 12 out of other 16 cards (9 handed plo) are box cards, and you dont have enough for the full board?

Boxed cards just get skipped over like they didn't even come off the deck. Obviously we let everyone see them so everyone has the same information, and then put them face down into the muck. All the cards that are downward facing should play like they normally would in the order they come out.


I don't know what happens if there are so many that the hand cannot proceed. Someone else will have to answer that one.

I think the actual rules say you void the entire hand but it's a rule not enforced because no one wants to have it enforced that way.

RRoP says:

* 2 boxed cards during the deal is a misdeal
* After that, boxed cards are treated like "meaningless scraps of paper" and are replaced by the next non-boxed card in the deck

there is no text about what to do if too many boxed cards exist to complete the hand. in such a case I would likely void the hand.

Sounds like floor got it right. 1 boxed card on deal gets replaced with the burn card. later boxed cards are ignored and replaced.

My interpretation of "during the deal" means at any time when the dealer is still dealing out cards - i.e. anytime before the river is dealt. Basically, if 2 boxed cards at anytime during the hand, the hand is voided, everyone gets their money back. If they're just seen while spreading the stub after all cards are dealt, this does not void the hand.

A boxed card in the initial deal should _not_ be replaced with the burn card. As soon as a boxed card comes up, it should be ignored and the player who would have gotten the boxed card should get the very next card off the top of the deck. This is what it means to be treated "like a scrap of paper". The problem with this, however, is that professional dealer generally deal so quickly that they have already dealt that next card to another player, which makes the rule very difficult to follow.

I don't agree with your interpretation. It specifically says 2 cards during the deal is a misdeal, not a voided hand. They are two different things, and a misdeal can only occur during the deal or until action has occurred on the hand.

You're exactly right about it not being replaced by the burn card though, I got that part wrong. (unless the dealer dealt the next card to the next player before realizing it, and it was the second card, and that was already mixed in with the other downcard and is now unidentifiable.)

I have played a holdem game in a casino where a second boxed card came up while dealing a board card and the hand was voided. Can't remember what casino it was at, but I believe they were following the rule as per RROP. They called it a misdeal but it was effectively the same as a voided hand, and everyone was given their money back.

Your interpretation is wrong IMO.
The "deal" is pitching cards to the players.

I don't think this is correct (although I'm sure that rulings do vary). IMO, "the deal" is the initial deal only and 2 boxed cards = misdeal. After that (subsequent rounds), boxed cards are treated as meaningless "scraps of paper" (exposed and discarded, continue to deal). If insufficient cards remain on the turn or river, that's what the burn cards are for. If almost the entire deck were boxed and discovered on or after the flop, so that not even 3 more unboxed cards remain undealt, (I have never seen this but) in theory I suppose the entire hand would then have to be voided, and money returned.
(Although I'm certain that someone, somewhere might come up with another ruling...)

Well, I don't know what you saw happen in a casino, but if they did what you say it is not following RRoP. Here is what RRoP says about misdeals:
and here are all the (hold 'em) references to voiding a hand:
and here are all the rules on boxed cards:

It may vary room to room but in mine, if you get to a 2nd box card at any time during a hand, it is a misdeal. All chips return to the players. When we have one, a supervisor comes over and the dealer carefully rifles through the deck to make sure there aren't any more, in an effort to cut it off earlier as opposed to later when there might be a big pot and more pissed off players. And yes, as others said, the singular boxed card is "treated like a piece of paper." You don't substitute it for a burn. You don't treat it like a flipped card by the dealer. Occasionally I'll have a dealer that doesn't know this and has already treated it like a flipped card if it came on the initial deal. By then it's too late so if there isn't SA I call misdeal because the cards are out of order.

As far as the far fetched scenario of having 12 of 16 remaining cards as boxed cards, I think you could use a procedure similar to draw games where you don't have enough cards to finish all the draws, and take the muck and remaining cards, shuffle them, and then finish putting out the board. Not standard, but that would be an unusual situation.

Or, you could just turn the stub upside down, so you now have 12 good cards and 4 boxed cards.

Pretty much covered here .. rooms may be all over the map on this one though

A) The Deal is different than Play/Action. Apply room rules accordingly but Robert's pretty much has this covered ... Not sure about TDA but assume it's close.

B) And how did the Dealer make such a perfect cut of the cards as well? In this case here I would probably just take all 'available' cards and shuffle up and 'deal'. GL

At FW we had multiple boxed cards come up as the flop was being dealt. They were discarded and the hand was completed.

My opinion is that multiple (2 or more) boxed cards while all hands haven't been dealt to the players will result in a misdeal in the same way that 2 exposed cards during the deal will result in a misdeal.

My guess is that in a game like PLO, if enough boxed cards come up that make it impossible to deal out the river (including the burn cards) then the hand would be a misdeal and all bets returned.

However, also at FW, I saw a hand in which the dealer dropped the stub into the muck pile along with the burn cards such that the stub (and burn cards) were not in any way retrievable, before the river was dealt, and the Floor ruled that the Dealer should shuffle the entire muck and then deal the rest of the board...

A misdeal can only be declared before significant action. What you deacribe (bets being returned) is a voided hand, which is a much more drastic ruling than a misdeal. Two boxed cards resulting in a voided hand is not going to be the norm in most casinos, and is a somewhat baffling ruling.

It just came up as argument while players were arguing against the ruling. I also didn't know 2 boxed cards during the deal causes a misdeal so I thought they could be more spread throughout the deck when I posted the question.

Was aware 2 flipped cards cause a misdeal but I dont think I've ever seen/noticed 2 box cards preflop