I have played around 3k hours in the following cities and stakes in the last 2 years. 1k hours at 1/2 split limit in black hawk co @19/h. 500ish hours at 2/5 1k cap in Vegas mostly aria (2/5 1k at all casinos has not gone as hoped @12/h with huge swings). 500ish hours at mgm/maryland live/borgata all at 2/5 1k. 100 hours at 5/5 500 at the commerce @-2/h. With the rest of the hours at upper midwest casinos in mostly 100bb games at 1/2 1/3 and 2/5 no limit not split @15/h. Going further back I played some in both Florida and winstar but don't have the stats anymore. I'm a fairly frugal guy whos only real goals at the moment are to beat poker and get into better shape. I'm also quite boring outside of poker so nightlife ect were never a factor in judging cites only the games/weather.

Admittedly the best advice would be from someone killing the games, not a marginal winner but my take on the subject is this. If you don't already beat 2/5+ for 5+bb/h (preferably over 1k+ hours) don't quit your day job and if you don't have one get one (probably not gonna follow my own advice here ). The average stack size at the table is more important than the blinds for hourly rates. My local 2/5 100bb cap plays smaller than some 1/3 until stacks build up after 5+ hours. Traveling to play short term is rarely worth it. I wouldn't move solely to play in a "better" game of the same size to what you currently play. I would only move to move up in stakes or get access to more hours of a given stake. I don't think it matters all that much where you move as long as they have the stakes you want for the number of hours you want.

Some random thoughts of note are:
New casinos in areas that had none before have new/bad players. This also attracts winning players to show up to level it out. MGM national harbor seemed to have a dozen European regs of variable skill at the 2/5 tables for example.
Rake is all over the place. From worst to best it seems to be Cali>illinois>florida=DC area>upper midwest>vegas and borgata. If you are moving for 2/5 I think rake is a fairly large factor then it matters less and less as you go higher. Specifically the rake in LA where many recommend ending up for the best hourly is going to hurt in the 5/5 500 cap games.
Traffic is crazy in some of these places for a guy from a city of 170k and could be a big factor someone moving for poker might not list on the pro/con sheet.
We have all 4 seasons up here but I wasn't ready for the Vegas heat and it would probably be my biggest reason not to live there long term.

One last thing is that I would echo the sentiments that beating live poker at 2/5 for 50k+/year ain't that easy at least not for me. Even if I do continue to improve and get there or higher I don't think ill be able to say it was easy. Motivation to grind and play well on a downswing, not being caustic at the table during hour 53 of the week and other factors outside of just playing a given hand well are harder than I figured they would be. Its also not as simple as taking a say 400 hour sample from what is probably some of the best hours of the week to play and multiply times 5 for a full time schedule. The more hours you play in a week the less sharp you will be.

It's close enough to what I meant that I'll own it.

Basically, if you are not a winner at 2/5, it's easy to become a winner (crushing soft games and holding your own in tough games). I have enough hours at 2/5 to do exactly that - win in soft games and hold my own in tough games. If you want the brag, I also crush 1/2-1/3 and moved up from 3/6 LHE to 80/160 LHE, winning every stake along the way (except for 4/8 lol), so I understand very well the dynamics of poker ladders in general.

The lower levels are relatively easy to improve at. There is tons of free advice - whether good or not - and plenty of games. As you move up, 5/10 NL or 30/60 LHE levels - advice gets scarce, and games are rarer. If you think 2/5 NL or 15/30-20/40 LHE is tough, wait until you get to the games where you should be careful posting because your opponents who lurk will recognize you from the hands you post!

I fully agree that making a solid living off of poker is difficult. It's just that I don't think the 2p2 dream of earning $50k at 1/2 to be a "solid living." I actually don't think $100k at 2/5 is either, because of the Certainty Equivalent, but that's probably a different thread.

I don't disagree. But I think they should. I think most pros aren't thinking enough about the future.

The reason you want to "shoot for the stars" or however you put it is that your poker winrate gets eaten up over time - from inflation, from opponents improving, and also just because your opponents will grow their salaries faster.

If you're satisfied with topping out at 2/5, it's a lot like someone who strives never to be promoted. There's nothing wrong with it in yhe short term, but over 20 years you just watch the world pass you by.

I doubt NL has been around long enough to have the old timers tell stories of the Good Ol Days, but if you play 3/6-6/12 LHE you can hear stories from people who played those stakes for 40+ years. And they're proud of it too, like, "I've been playing this game since you were a sperm!" Some of them even moved up to 15/30-30/60 during the poker boom, but then dropped down because they were winning more at 6/12 than they were at high stakes (which is probably true, not because they had a high 6/12 winrate but because they had a low 15/30 winrate).

They were probably relatively good at one point, but they failed to evolve with the game.

And this whole "if you're not moving forward, you're falling behind" thing is true of life in general and not just poker. In my industry (science) you see the same crusty "regs" who hung on for 30+ years, grinding out a living without moving up, becoming more and more bitter at watching arrogant young hotshots get promoted over them.

I don't think 50k at 1/2 or 100k at 2/5 represent anyone but the guys who don't need the advice. They are smart enough to figure out where to play and are clearly very likely to succeed regardless of the scenario in front of them. I think what you are saying in general is excellent but you might need to lower your expectations a tad for the less capable. I know the uncertainty of income makes 100k a year from poker less valuable than 100k from elsewhere but obviously 100k avg a year would double or triple a lot of normal hardworking individuals incomes. I think this happens in these winrate/hourly discussions where we get so far away from the average incomes because extremely smart individuals forget about the ordinary expectations of your average person. They forget because the crushers (in poker or in life in general) are not average. I'm definitely not turning down a 100k or even 50k income to play poker and neither are the guys grinding 2/5 with me. I'm turning down construction work or delivering pizzas or going back to school. Since I don't want to do any of those things here I am. It's also worth noting our average standard of living is very high. Reaching for the stars is probably the best way to get better but 100k is not a "solid" living doesn't match up to all the guys I know who make 20-40k doing construction work or are police or work in restaurants. I also know an orthopedic surgeon who makes 1m a year and a couple airline pilots who make 200k a year they are extremely dedicated driven people. I know a high income is possible and applaud striving for it but poopooing even an uncertain 100k a year is out of touch with reality in my opinion.

Great info ! What has been your favorite place to play/area/living and why ? Any place stand out that you definetly don't wanna return to ?

Since I'm such a boring guy all cities are mostly the same to me outside the weather and the individual poker rooms. Id happily live the rest of my life in the midwest except that I can't play live poker at the stakes and hours I want here.
If it wasn't for the heat id say vegas. If it wasn't for the rake id say LA. I'll probably move to vegas for the low cost of living and low taxes and if all goes well a move to la for bigger games would make sense.
Most of the games up here are 100bb cap and fairly boring as many buy in for less. This is the only thing I can really think of I want to avoid.

Thanks for posting in this thread. It seems like you and I are at similar levels. I have also played all over, including many hours in Vegas. Surprisingly, I have only played in LA one time, a few years ago at the Commerce. Do you think the games are a lot softer there? You know the types I'm referring too....the spewy, loose, degens.

It seems like Vegas has very, very, few of these types compared to the average city. I would assume LA has a ton of those types. But I could be wrong? What's your take?

I found the 5/5 game at the commerce to be unsatisfactory for a combination of reasons. When you table change you have to go south to 100bb. Some players do this solely for the purpose of staying at 100bb makes the game much shorter obviously. The rake is brutal and 100bb sucks.

I didn't know about the 5/5 1k game at the bicycle at the time so I didn't try it. All in all I dont think LA is all that great south of the 5/10 1500 max at the commerce but I plan on trying the 1k cap games at the other casinos before I sign any leases in vegas. The drop at the commerce is probably the worst rake in the us while the rake in vegas is probably the lowest ive seen with the possible exception of the borgata with 5$/half hour time rake.

I also didnt see a huge diffrence between the softness of the vegas 2/5 and the commerce 5/5 but I was probably in vegas during some of the best times of the year. The regs seemed to imply the winter was rather slow compared to summer.

Does the forced going south apply to the 5/10 at commerce as well?

Whats the rake? Poker Atlas says $7 per hand which includes $2 extra for BBJ if a river card is dealt

Is that right? Is it a max of $7? Or is it $7 +$2?

I don't know for certain. Might ask in the la or commerce threads. I would guess it doesn't but I never would have guessed you were forced/allowed to go south before seeing it.

My memory isn't crystal clear but I'm fairly sure its 5+2. I think its 5 taken at 40 or 50 and that's fairly normal to me compared to the 5th dollar taken at 120 in vegas. The part that really hurts is the 2 taken from the small blind every hand even without a flop, even if its a chop.

That's not brutal rake. That's pretty standard for most places around the Country. Vegas rake is lower but $5 +$2 is pretty standard in most places.

The $2 rake when there's no flop sucks but if there's lots of action, there arent too many hands with no flop anyway.

My main room in S. Florida is $5 +$2 with no flop no drop. Another nearby place I play is $5 +$2 with $2 min rake no matter what. My win rate in the second room is higher because there's much more action there.

LV used to be $4 max rake everywhere but over the last couple of years every poker room on the strip has gone to $5 max, so that is not as huge differentiation as it once was.

Perhaps it's not brutal in that worse exists particularly overseas but for a game where the average stacks are short and don't really get deep in the manner I expect as the day goes on the rake is a large factor. Its also 2-3 hours away from half the rake per hour in vegas making it stand out in my mind. Vegas is something like 1-20 2-40 3-60 4-100 and 5-120 while la was something like 1bbj preflop 1 rake pre 2-10 3-20 4-30 5-40 with another dollar dropped at the river for the bbj. I could be wrong on the specifics but my back of the napkin math figured this to be nearly double the effective rake if you are winning many small pots. Maybe I'm too cheap for my own good if the games in la make up for the increased rake but paying say 35 an hour in rake instead of 20 is a huge factor. If the various 1k cap 2/5s are soft and deep I might recommend skipping vegas but the higher rake makes me feel like I'm driving a car with a tire deflating.

I also got a taste of 5$ per half hour at the borgata 2/5. Very nice if you are winning more than your % of hands. The only problem was that the time rake dynamic lead to very few short handed games. That and ten handed tables are awful.

IMO, once you get to 2/5 or higher, rake is a much smaller issue than people think. How much action and how big the avg pot size is a much bigger factor. I constantly hear how nitty Vegas games are and how much action L.A has so assuming that's correct Id much rather play in L.A. games.

Having said that, Ive played plenty of Vegas games and didnt find them nitty compared to where I play so I take people's advice with a grain of salt. If they ever start a Nit Hall of Fame, it should be housed in my room.

I'll be in L.A. from 10/10-10/12 so I be sure to report back here on how I find the games.

in discussions on playing professionally i assume as a baseline that you are already a world class cash game player. if that is not the case (or not yet the case) you should not play poker for a primary income IMO because you will fail.

The rake caps from 10e to 20e or so from 1/2 to 5/10 are not a major problem in Western Europe. You might find those games at least in London and Spain (Madrid, Barcelona). There tends to be an entrance fee of like 10e, that reduces the sense of playing just an hour or so.

In Amsterdam, the rake cap is 20e at 1/2 and gets higher as the limits get higher and usually the games do not run high enough for the rake to be reasonable, as far as I have read, so it is pretty much out as a live cash possibility most of the time.

France just lost their maybe final live room (all up to 10 rooms were suspect of money laundering and were closed one at a time). We can pretty much count France out at this time.

Italy uses the 10e rake cap for 1/2 but it is 20e right after that and gets higher as limits get higher and such games don't usually run in Italy (San Remo has the lowest like 2/5 perhaps, and somewhat a high rake and it is a small city). Venice has no poker. Casino poker runs somewhat (like nlh200 only) above Milan at a couple of places (or one just in Switzerland running nlh200 regularly). PLO rarely runs in Italy and if runs it is likely 1/2. Italy has (or had?) many card clubs more or less everywhere that run some tournaments and Rome might have some cash also running but it is not much and maybe nothing at this time.

Greece is difficult as one needs to often travel long distances to places that offer casino and poker games. And the rake can be a problem (when in the ROW and not knowing, mostly expect it to be). Cyprus might make more sense.

The rake in Hungary (the capital city, as it usually is the case) is pretty high; I would rather play NLH200 in Bucharest with a 3% rake and about no cap, while the games above that and PLO have a too high rake. The entrance fee exists here also but you get something for free for it, that include(d) some cigarettes when smoking at the table was allowed (smoking in Prague isn't allowed either, and that in the EU might include the electrical ones also, and it isn't sure you can take your bag at the table in Europe/ROW).

These eastern countries (including India, actually) have this kind of weirdly high too rakes. The lowest limits they run are about 50 or 100 (Hungary might have 100 with a possible straddle).

In the eastern EU, the live action doesn't generally run high, rarely PLO (if it runs, including high, expect the rake to be too high). You can check more or less of the Romanian action with the software that tells real time what they have running (allinpokerclub has the link for it and runs on mobile or with a converter like BlueStacks).

The Facebook also might tells what limits are usually running somewhere. I think, in the USA, they might have their own (popular) software for what is running even right now.

Prague; the whole country is rather western also as far as the costs go but they have many places that run poker also, but I haven't visited personally, and the King's Casino Rozvadov is too isolated and the rake is high and I read the games are not good either.

Scotland has the USA rake level but runs just nlh200 basically. They are also pretty much out of the EU at least the next 5+ years. Ireland in my mind does not have any live action to mention and the regulation situation is not clear to me at this time but should be tax free winnings like so many countries in the EU are other than the Mediterranean ones.

Or Portugal is likely tax-free, and Germany -- might be worth checking out the live scene here but it is not often visited like Spain and Amsterdam is, and Prague and even Hungary for some reason. Or in Germany, there are taxes if you make the majority of your money with it, while the situation in Switzerland and Austria is getting unclear here and as regulations, and not expecting a live scene, though there might be many places to play in Austria; that is one place where some pros from Germany moved in. The Austrian players might be gamblers but that alone doesn't help up to any as they tend to be gamblers in Amsterdam also.

In Portugal, one might get live action at least in (O)Porto but I have no knowledge of it (one might go and camp there, though the Atlantic is cold or 21C at best; often good to dangerous during other times for surfing) and can expect a lack of action, high rake, not enough PLO, but I don't know.

Pokerdiscover.com is a pretty good single source for checking out the world.

The rake in India is either too high (even online) or/and they are private (invite only). Karnataka state might be the best (also the weather is cooler), meaning Bangalore, as the rake is said to be significantly lower than in Goa, but it is probably an invite-only and rates to be still too low games or/and too high rake. Some online room runs maybe even more PLO action than NLH action and if one wants, one can check it out as a serious player from an affiliate/agent but expect high rake, 30% or so taxes when cashing out and then more taxes in your country (generally not tax free for EU players).

Going in Turkey (I know too little to mention), some ex-soviet countries (not talking about the usual eastern players really) and so on, the whole ROW, might offer some interesting (temporary) opportunities for gamblers.

Some places offer cheaper or sometimes even free accommodation if you play enough (this or that limit and form) hours, especially if they want action and such deals are sometimes out there or available, though not sure you don't get the bill when you leave if you don't have the deal and hours on paper, also the rake rates to be too high, and you alone might not get enough action and with others like you, well, you could stay at home.

Not sure what you mean by "failing". Do you mean you will go broke? If that's the case then you are definitely incorrect.

I play professionally yet I'm not a crusher at my given stake, meaning I'm not winning at 10 BB's an hour. I'm still able to pay the bills and I've weathered the storm through brutal downswings. I wouldn't consider myself world class either...

Lotta room between world class and failing out of live poker. I don't really disagree with the idea that you should have a day job if you are not a big winner in your games. Live poker is just so soft in comparison to online that you can obviously make decent money without being "world class".

don't want to derail this thread too far but what i mean by failing is that you will fail to make a primary income from poker long term and last in the game, and especially to have that be a 6-figure income.

you can certainly make money but my view is that making $40/hr playing poker is a relatively miserable existence and i also think even fewer of those players last having poker as their primary income because of the grind that the game tends to become. after playing for 15 years, it will be even harder for you to head to the casino again if it's to make $200 instead of $750 that day. particularly in light of the the opportunity cost of other options in life (that people who can make pro poker work have) that have not only vastly higher income potential but also things poker can never offer such as income stability, benefits, potentially greater fulfillment/impact, pension/retirement ability. poker has to be offering you a higher hourly IMO, in most cases, for you to keep poker as a primary income and forego these other options, particularly (a) as you get older and (b) if you have a family.

i go into detail on this in DGAF's thread in MHFR: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=5323

there are exceptions. as i've made clear earlier ITT this is my personal view and approach to poker (i simply value my time much higher than $50/hr if it's going to be a long term engagement). it also does not prevent you from playing for 10 years professionally at a $40 or $50 hourly and reaping all the benefits of that, and then diversifying your income gradually (or drastically) away from poker. that is a respectable and totally sweet thing to realize in your life. i just think a lot of people that make that work are under the impression they'll be happy with that forever.

perhaps you do not need to be a world class cash game player to beat NLHE for that hourly, but you likely do higher. as a general statement, i think most pro or aspiring pro players underestimate how good you have to be to last long term. similarly literally almost nobody, regardless of how pro they may be, is properly rolled and runwayed (yes you need both, and lots of both) for the game to be more than about 75% of their income.

people run well. those who don't, you tend not to hear from.

Report?

Im actually still in L.A. and will be today and tomorrow although I may only get another couple hours of poker in. My wife is with me now.

I played at Hawaiian Gardens, The Bike, Commerce and Hollywood Park. I got 17 hours in so far. I intended to play a good amount of 5/10 but the 5/5 was so soft everywhere that I couldnt tear myself away. I only played 90 mins of 5/10.

I cant stress enough how ridiculously soft the 5/5 games are compared to my rooms in S. Florida. The 5/10 was more respectable but still much softer than the 5/10 in my room (which rarely runs anymore except during snowbird season).

Avg pot size is much bigger in these rooms than Im used to. Even at 10am, the tables had very good action (I only played Commerce this early).

The only tough 5/5 table I played was at the Bike. There was only 1 limped pot in the 90 mins I played there. It played like a 5/10 and I couldn't change tables (there were only 2 tables at like 7PM) so I left and went back to Commerce.

Commerce was the most basic, non fancy room, but has crazy amount of games and table selection (although I never changed tables because every table was soft and juicy). Chairs are super firm which I love for my bad back. I could sit all day comfortably.

Hawaiian Gardens is newly remodeled and was a nice mid sized room. Good action but the chairs hurt my back.

Hollywood Park is also remodeled. Its shiny new and fancy. I liked it a lot.

The Bike was comfortable and has huge TVs but I didnt stay long.

There are insane amount of players in all the rooms but a lot of them are playing small stakes. Except for Commerce, the other rooms have separate areas/rooms for what they acted like was "high stakes", but was really 2/3 and higher most places.

My experience in S. Florida is that a large percentage of players, although they arent great poker players, are/were very successful people in the regular careers. They tend to be intelligent white collar high income type people. Also tons of retirees (mostly old school white guys) who have money and are conservative.

What Ive found in L.A. is quite the opposite. I know there is lots of money out here also, but there are tons of lower educated people blue collar type people playing. Lots of people who come to gamble and have no idea what they are doing. Most tables have only 1-2 people speaking English with no accent. Asians, Hispanics, Europeans...ect. This is not to sound racist at all. I love diversity and my wife is Hispanic. Im just saying that these people tend to have more gamble in them so there is significantly more action.

The 5/10 game I played had 3 obvious whales. They might as well have had a sign around their necks that said "WHALE". I could see how it would be easy to target them and mostly avoid the better players, although in my short time there, I played pots mostly against the better players. It just worked out that way.

Played 15 hrs of 5/5 and won $1850
Played 1 1/2 hrs of 5/10 and won $600

I havent even flopped a set yet which is where a large portion of your profits come from.

Obviously I dont expect that to be sustainable, but I have no doubt at all that win rates in L.A. would be 30-50+% higher than my nitty room in S. Florida.

I intend to come back at some point for about a month and just grind away and see what happens.

PS..whats up with the way they label the games? Commerce 5/5 is a $300-$500 buy in. Instead of just calling the game a 5/5, they call it $300NL. They call the 5/10 game $500NL because its $500-$1500 buy in. Its very confusing.

How often have you played in Casino Montreal? It does not suck balls. The high rake and lack of perks is definitely made up for by the legendary ****tiness of the players here.

Why are French Canadian players so bad?

I have a few working theories, a lot of which revolve around drugs and alcohol.

Alchol Abuse is pervasive in Montreal. It's just part of the culture to drink. When Canada voted on national prohibition, 100 years ago, Quebec was 80% against. By far the highest in Canada.

I think the European feel of the city also contributes. Isn't the image of the avg European player more aggressive than North America?

On top of that you seem to have this seedy element in Montreal. So many Bikers, strippers, hookers, drug dealser, pimps all around this city and they do show up on the poker table, more than occassionally.

If I can average a 35 dollar-40 dollar per hour win rate here than I guess some of the pros on here could do a lot better and make some serious money.

Only big question is the logistics of it. If you live in the USA, you can't easily move to Montreal permanently. Green card and immigration issues would arise eventually I think. If you are young and making money, you will probably meet a girl because French Canadian women are friendly and attractive. Then you probably get married and get a Green Card that way.


I haven't played in LA that long, but I didn't find the tables to be very loose. And man that city is so expensive to live in with rent, food and entertainment costs. I think Vegas would be a good city to go pro in 20 years ago, but now that city is kind of expensive too.

I only played there once. Im not saying the games aren't good. Im saying the Casino sucks. I felt like I had been abducted by aliens and was stuck in their space ship. The place is very strange. The ceilings are low. The layout is weird. The poker room is all black. IIRC the walls and ceiling are black. Its very dark with lights only shining down on the tables.

Ive never been in a poker room with cheaper chairs.

At least thats how it was last year when I was there.

Oh yeah place is a dump and they charge you for soft drinks. Even Casinos in POS Ontario don't do that.