How many poker rooms are there at WinStar?

Winstar has 55 tables and spreads 1/2, 1/3, and 2/5 NL daily. 3-5 tables of 2/5 during weekdays, many more on weekends. Quite a bit of disposable income in the games.
5/10 NL and 2/5 Omaha happen on weekends.
Not having competition is not the best for comps and rewards compared to LV, LA, but food and rooms are available free regularly.

Dallas has many higher stakes private games that are there if you look and want that sort of thing, but almost every city likely has that.

Denton, with Dallas or Fort Worth (which is the cultural center of Texas) only 30-40 minutes away, is a great place to live.
If you are young and single, two universities with around 50,000 students and lots of live music, eateries, watering holes and gathering spots.
If you have a family, great schools overall along with many great neighborhoods to raise kids. The city has lots of family oriented events, including Jazz fest, Blues fest, Thin Line Film and Music Festival, Children's Art Festival, Denton Black Film Festival, Day of the Dead Festival (an awesome one by any standard) etc.

Low cost of living compared to any of the other cities being discussed.

But not as sexy as LA, LV, or Miami.

It's not just "not as sexy." As a pro, you need to consider your future.

LA and Miami have huge costs of living, but companies are well aware of that. Everyone uses online calculators to see how much more they need to pay their employees. Groceries may cost 1.5x as much, but employees get paid 1.5x too.

As a pro, you get to be (or have to be) self-employed. You give yourself raises by improving your game, and you give yourself promotions by moving up in stakes. And if you don't do these things, you end up having your winrate chipped away by inflation and general lack of competiveness.

Being a 1/2-2/5 NL pro in a low COL area is like the 2+2 dream. And I'm not totally discounting that, just pointing out that over time you'll note that the megawhales you look down on may end up doing better than you, because they may drop $500/night at the tables once a week but they sell enough Viagra to earn fat year end bonuses or kiss enough ass to get promoted to the national office in NYC.

10 years from now, do you expect Winstar to have more or fewer games? Higher, lower, or similar stakes?

I agree that if you intend to play 2,000 hours/year of $40/hr 2/5 NL forever, you're a lot better doing that at Winstar than Commerce. But if your goal is to play 2,000 hours/year of $150/hr 10/25 NL, you should work as quickly as possible to make that happen, and that means being in a place where 10/25 NL actually runs 2,000+ hours/year.

That sure as hell isn't gonna happen in Montreal. You wont even get 2000 hours of 2/5 there. It probably ONLY happens in L.A. There are very few places left where you can play 2000 hours of anything higher than 2/5 unless its L.A.

(for aspiring pros), Why not build a bankroll at WinStar and then move to L.A. if you think you are good enough to play higher stakes than 5/10?

Which is why it boggles my mind when people are like, what's the best city to go poker pro, and then LA is not the immediate #1 choice. Or when people flippantly dismiss it, meh, too expensive, meh, too urban, meh, too liberal. I mean, really, you can count the number of casinos capable of supporting a midstakes pro on one hand and you want to cross one off the list without even a visit?

Not an aspiring pro, but I'll give a serious answer: because when you scour the Earth for the world's softest 2/5 game, you don't build the skills needed to crush skulls in an ultracompetitive environment.

People nerf the games for themselves, bending over backward to play peak hours, and aggressively tablr and seat changing to get the best seats. And they build some fantastic 1/2 and 2/5 winrates, for sure. But then they move up to stakes where there's one table and every seat change has 3 pros fighting over it.

Lol The Playground has BY FAR the most comfortable chairs of most (any?) casinos in the world (and definitely in North America).

As almost anyone (not named MikeStarr ) knows, The Playground has become a hotspot for BIG live events in the past few years and a known tournament circuit stop. Given that Montreal is also an amazing city for someone in their 20s, a few pros have moved here. The rake is pretty meh, but the lowstakes are very soft. Unfortunately, not many midstakes games run outside of series, albeit 10-25 does run once/twice a month, you hence need to content yourself with 5-5 NLHE (1k BI) or 5-10 PLO.

Phnom Penh is still rumoured to be decent (have not been in 5 years...) in Asia for lowstakes (some mid) and Barcelona seems to be the place for highstakes in Europe (have yet to go, but will find out in December...). If not, there quite a few places around the world that have some amazing highstakes games, but moreso for the softness then the city in which they are located

Playground is awesome. Only gripe is the rake and the inaccessibility if using only public transport. There's always Casino Montreal which isn't too bad - the 1/2 games there are pretty soft.

In addition to what calli said, I think the reality is the vast majority of "pro" or aspiring pro players are not properly rolled for 2/5 even. But you can sort of float by, rebuilding your BR enough from other sources so as to stay in the games. Your swings will generally be small enough in absolute $ value to absorb without too much pain or time away from the tables to mess your life up.

The BR required for a 5/10 playing professionally jumps to an amount that few people have the discipline to put aside indefinitely, and that often takes years rather than months to build at lower stakes, if building a roll through poker is the approach you take (which I don't recommend). Your variance will also see an uptick at 5/10. Your downswings become psychologically heavy numbers, and if you're not BR managing properly, or you're sort of floating by on a variable, non-permanent BR that you replenish randomly or as needed, 5/10 is much more likely to put you out of the game for a long period of time.

Long story short, there are very few people that actually make this gig work and are applying the fininacial discipline necessary off-felt to play professionally sustainably. 5/10 or higher exposes that much more quickly. Consequently, you have a lot of "pros" that won't be around in 3 years squabbling over where the lowest living expenses are that spreads 2/5.

Now you are talking about a whole different subject. "Can I play poker for a living?". You're listing reasons why it wont work for most people and I agree with you.

But you dont just move to L.A. and start playing 5/10 for a living. You have to have played a ton of lower stakes and you have to have a bankroll for 5/10.

You cant just be rich and start playing 5/10 without an extensive poker background at lower stakes and you cant just play a ton of low stakes and then jump to 5/10 with too small of a roll.

Casino Montreal sucks balls and who is going to play 1/2 for a living?

I didnt play at Playground. I said I played at one of the 2 Montreal casinos, which was Casino Montreal, and the place sucks and has no table selection above 1/2. No way you can play professionally there, not would anyone want to for very long.

If Playground has decent table selection at 2/5 and/or higher then it could be a viable choice, but I know the rake is really high.

Fair enough, but a little of the info that is being spewed around ITT is not very accurate/out of date. Montreal is booming (Playground has 50+ tables running everyday (not just weekends), Casino de Montreal has 2-5 running everyday (at least 2 tables) and 5-10 running once or twice a month (waiting list everyday).

As far as the rooms go, Playground is elite as it comes, and Casino de Montreal is a fine room (17 tables, most of which are occupied every night). Things have changed in La Belle Province, you do not get 2500+ players in 5k events just because

Why can’t you do that? If you don’t mind losing a chunk while learning, there’s no reason to start off at a lower limit.

I can’t remember who it was exactly, but a well known online NL/PLO pro was asked why he was OK with losing a ton while learning 2-7 at high stakes and his answer was that he could afford it, didn’t like to play low stakes and also thought that smaller stakes experience wouldn’t help him in nosebleed games.

If somebody told me they just sold their business for 9 figures and wanted to start poker now, I’d tell them to go play 5/10+ if losing a million wouldn’t bother them.

I thought we were talking about a legit pro poker player. Not some guy with $100+ million in the bank who wants to spend a lot of time at a poker table and end up being a winning player.

But if you play a ton of low stakes with 5/10-level skill, you don't have too small of a roll.

Let's say you play 1,000 hours of 2/5 at +8 bb/hr. That's $40k in winnings, plus whatever bankroll you started with ($5k? $10k?), minus taxes ($5k), living expenses for that time period, probably 6 months ($10k? $20k?).

The bankroll is the easy part.

This is why it's really shortsighted to favor soft low stakes games in low COL places. Your goal should be to crush the highest stakes games; your lifetime earnings will depend mostly on your winrate in that biggest game and the number of lifetime hours you get to put into it.

Sure, but my point is that this same person who can beat 2/5 in most places for 8bb/hr could play 1000 hours of 2/5 at WinStar at a 10BB/hr win rate and make $50,000. That's an extra $10,000 over 6 months, plus spend less to live during that 6 months.

So if this whole discussion is about where to play professional poker, I would say to start at Winstar, build your bankroll as fast as possible, and if/when you think you are good enough to play 5/10 or higher....get your ass to L.A.

Coincidentally, I'll be in L.A. to play poker for the first time next month.

This is exactly what I mean!

You can be at Winstar and make an extra $20k ($10k earnings and $10k savings). And if you intend to play 2/5 for the rest of your life, great.

But look at your lifetime. Let's say that you will eventually make $150/hr at a bigger game. Every time right now you're playing $50/hr 2/5 is costing you $100/hr, not earning you $10/hr.

If playing the world's toughest 2/5 in a high COL area gets you to the Big Game faster, from a lifetime winnings perspective you want to maximize the time spent at your highest winrate. You're not going to be as prepared playing the world's softest 2/5 as you would be if you played the world's toughest 2/5.

In a sports analogy, it would be like a baseball player deciding which team to play for based on the location or record of their AAA team. Your goal is to spend as little of your time in the farm league, not to figure out a way to make it work as a career.

2/5 isn't even AAA. 5/10 is AAA.

So I just saw your post in the Vegas/LA thread and I think you're doing yourself a disservice by table changing (and presumably seat changing) at 2/5.

If anything, you should be table changing to the toughest table. If there are 10/20 pros slumming it while waiting for their table, you should be table changing to their tables and seat changing to their rights. And if they find your leaks and crush you for 100 bb, you should thank your lucky heavens that it only cost you $500 instead of finding it out at the Big Game and it costing you $2,000.

If 5/10 isn't your eventual goal, you shouldn't be table changing and seat changing there either - and you should be choosing the casino that spreads the game(s) you eventually want to play (I have played at neither Commerce nor Bike but as I understand it all the big games are at Commerce). That way, if you have a big day at 5/10, you can try a bigger game.

There are many places in the world that have soft 5/10 games. There aren't many places that have bigger games. It would be a shame to spend a month in a place where you could be playing bigger, but then end up driving back and forth in LA traffic scouring the city for the softest 2/5.

No. If you dont have the bankroll to play the bigger games where your earnings are much higher, then you have to stay at 2/5 long enough to build that bankroll. If you can build the bankroll quicker at a place like Winstar and get to the bigger games quicker, then that's what you should do. You can earn more money now than you would in a tougher 2/5 game which gets you to the bigger games much quicker.

Player A plays 1000 hours of tough 2/5 at $40/hr to build a roll to get to L.A. 5/10 games where he expects to make $100/hr. He then plays his next 1000 hours and makes $100/hr. He has made $140,000 in 2000 hours.

Player B plays 750 hours of a softer 2/5 at $50/hr and combined with his lower COL is able to move to L.A. 250 hours sooner. Now he plays 1250 hours of L.A. 5/10 at $100/hr. He has made $162,500 in 2000 hours.

Now if the softer game isnt getting you ready to play bigger games, that's an entirely different subject.

From what Ive been told by guys who play in L.A, the games are very soft. Assuming thats the case, if you can beat a tough 2/5 game for $40/hr, then you can already beat L.A. 5/10 games for $80-$100+/hr, but if you dont have the bankroll to play 5/10, you should be playing a softer 2/5 game and winning $50/hr to get to L.A. 5/10 quicker.

No, that's this subject. What you posted about - the hypothetical player that is skilled enough to crush 5/10 for $100/hr but just doesn't already have $20k from playing at lower stakes - is the entirely different subject.

Now you're just arguing to argue. I said if you needed to build a bankroll, Winstar was the place to do it faster. If you cant beat 5/10, then the availability of 5/10 and higher games in L.A is a mute point.

Lol at considering Vegas in July to be "good weather"

Also, my opinion from over 3000 hours playing in Vegas spread over the last 7 years is that the games there are terrible. Plentiful, and good rake and comps etc. But terrible. A 5/10 game in Vegas plays smaller than a 2/5 game that runs anywhere else. And a 2/5 game in Vegas plays smaller than a 1/3 game almost anywhere else. I've never seen tighter games anywhere else (and I've played extensively around US/Canada). Vegas is absolutely full of guys making or supplementing a really budget living off of poker. And full of tourists who buy in for the min a couple of times and then move on to something else.

that is what i have heard from others as well. the reality is most people in vegas as broke. there's not enough loose money in the city to sustain games on the level you see in LA. the only reason it's on every poker city list is because it scores off the chart in terms of gambling culture. i've never really understood why anyone would want to live in Vegas to begin with, much less be a poker pro there. but maybe it comes back to the fact that i also wouldn't try to be a pro at 2/5.

there's a best way to do this thing and the best way is at the 5/10-10/20 level and equivalent (higher than that variance and corresponding BR requirements will likely outweigh gains in winrate if you play for a primary income) and to live in a city that (a) you like aside from poker and (b) has the requisite game availability.

Is there any city where you can realistically get 1500+ hours per year of 5/10 or higher other than L.A.?

this day and age, maybe not. maybe underground in some metropolises like NYC. i'm not familiar. also likely in Macau, if you want to/can live in HK.

i'm hoping eventually Toronto. there's enough money, but even if the casinos being developed spread poker, perhaps not enough loose cash and gambling culture to support 1250-1500hrs of 5/10. if Miami doesn't have it, likely wishful thinking that Toronto could (same metro pop., likely better gambling culture and looser money in Miami.)

additionally, if you want to play good hours (i.e. not Thurs-Sat night evening and graveyard shifts), it's likely only LA.

another thing i would add is that PLO is likely an excellent resource to counter this problem. as you all know PLO plays bigger and gamblier and tends to attract the loosest money in the area, if it runs. in a lot of these rooms where 2/5-1000 tends to be the biggest regular game, i suspect you can get a $5 blind PLO game (ideally uncapped) to run, and supplement your winrate.

in a room that's borderline, where 5/10 runs on weekends only, there's a chance PLO will run on weekdays at the $5 level and offer you similar winrate if it's action enough.

the room i cut my teeth in was like this. a deep $1/2 was the game that ran round the clock. 2/5 would spring up time to time, mostly on the weekends. but there was $5 PLO running at least 2-3 nights a week that probably played like a 5/10NL with a cap, and was action.

learning to crush PLO is something i'll be working on over the next few years due to this. it seems to often be the best game in the room. (in Canada it's usually the only other variant that's played other than Hold'em.)