so tl;dr i think we're in agreement. which is why any cash pro aspirations i hear about my first question is always how the plan features a move to LA. you're just short changing yourself massively by not living in the cash game poker capital of the world.

if you just play for supplemental income, all of this is irrelevant, just find a 2/5 room that fits with the rest of your life.

Maybe do some research on Sihanoukville, Cambodia. I currently live here, not as a poker pro, but do play a lot of poker when I get time off from my other job. and I gotta say the games here seem pretty soft. I only play at the 1/2 right now building my BR but while waiting for a seat I'll watch the 2/5/10 game and just watch madness go down. A lot of rich Chinese come here for vacation and also have moved here cause new casinos are popping up everyday. I think right now there are currently 5 casinos that offer NLH ranging from 1/1 to 10/20.

sure. but most of those hours will be in terrible games.

You could even get in 3000 hours a year in mostly bad 5/10 games in Vegas.

1500 hours is a little under 30 a week, 3000 a little under 60 hours. 5/10 at the Bellagio is running for (at least) 45-50 of the 60 total hours between Friday 4PM and Monday 4AM.

But who wants to do that? The question should be about games that are ‘good’ during hours you want to play. If I wanted to do 20 hour shifts, I could have gone to med school.

Id say that there's no doubt that we have reached an answer to where should you live if you want to be a pro that has potential to make $75-$150+/hr (which means playing above 2/5). You have to be in L.A.

However, a person can make a pretty good living without ever playing above 2/5. A top player who doesn't desire to play higher than 2/5 can make $100,000+ per year and have many many more options on where to live.

I think that's a better discussion actually. Mainly because there are many more people who can make $80,000-$100,000+ playing 2/5 with many more options on where to live than there are people can make $200,000+ playing 5/10 or higher.

I would reach the exact opposite conclusion from the same premise.

Finding a low COL area and grinding out $50k at 2/5 is pretty easy. You can cherry pick the best hours, play non-expertly, and spend a lot of time doing other things. If you put in the hours, 80-100 doesn't seem too crazy (100 maybe a little, that'd be 10/hr over 2000 hours, but overall we're in agreement).

It's the equivalent of getting a college degree in accounting. You'll quickly reach the middle class stage and you can lead a pretty scheduled, suburban life. There don't need to be a lot of threads on it. It's pretty straightforward.

It is, in fact, the non-obvious scenario - what do you do if you want more - that warrants discussions. I mean, why even bother asking where's the best place to be if you're playing a game that's spread almost anywhere and is pretty universally soft? It'd be the same as asking where's the best place to take an entry level accounting job - there are enough openings that you can let other factors decide (rural/suburban/urban, politics, weather, proximity to your significant other, proximity to hookers and blow, etc).

Where's the softest 1/2 on the Las Vegas Strip? The **** if I know, but it seems like if you pick one at random and it sucks, you can find another game faster than you can get decent advice on it.

Where's the softest 2/5 in the US? The **** if I know, but it seems like if you spent a week working through the toughest problems posted in LLSNL, they'd all be soft enough to obviate discussion.

I'd say there is no doubt to anyone that has travelled a decent amount that the best games/places to live are spread out in different countries across the globe. But no one WILL EVER chime in this thread to reveal the best spots (for obvious reasons).

rly?

This is just dumb. First of all the rake in countries outside the US is astronomical by our standards. But more than that, the whole "Im not gonna tell anyone where my great game is" is ridiculous. Compared to the number of people playing poker, the number of 2+2ers is tiny. Now, how many 2+2ers are actually going to pick and move to some other state or some other country just because some random person on the internet said the games were great there? Lets say a couple people actually do uproot their entire lives and move to Australia or Greece or where ever because they heard the poker was so soft there. Those 2 new players who may not even be any good are really going to ruin your honey hole of a poker room?

LOL..its just laughable.

What does this mean? $80-$100K doesnt sound too crazy? What does the 10/hr over 2000 hour part mean?

furthermore the concept of traveling significantly to play poker is a bit of a joke. if the games are really good somewhere, (a) just stay there and (b) people will find out, legal or underground. additionally if you travel around regularly to find good games, your travel expenses will be a huge liability, to the point where it may make the game unbeatable for you. this is why being a live tournament pro that travels around following the tournament "circuit" is patent stupidity.

finally, i simply don't believe that there are some secret pockets of huge poker overlay speckled across the globe. the convergence of money and gamble necessary to sustain a $100+ hourly winrate only happens in large rich cities.

+1

Ohhhhh Mike, that is almost cute The only thing capable of matching your arrogance, is your ignorance

This thread had the potential to actually be decent, but noooo, it had to become an Americanz-centered and thus limited to "which American city is the best to grind lowstakes in" as oppose to actually exploring different countries/continents :confused

I am not saying there is a great game out there outside of US of A #1, I am saying there are a ton of them. A few have already been mentioned ITT (Montreal, Australia), and several gold mines that you stumble upon/get to know when travelling to multiple countries and talking to other highstakes pros. Anyhow, in the end, you have the choice of keeping an open-mind about other countries to play live poker in (like the title of this thread states), or listen to the (very) limited knowledge Mr. Mike-know-it-all/LA-is-the-shyt-Star

As a final note before signing off from this thread, a couple of other ones that were created in the past pertaining to the live games in Asia :

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/9...-asia-1341013/

and upwards of 50 poker rooms visited in Canada, USA and the Europe :

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-time-1284817/

Also, a good rule of thumb is that Canada/USA are good for lowstakes and lower midstakes, but upper midstakes and great highstakes games can be found in various places, a lot of them in unsuspecting locations Signing out. Peace.

The thread is about what city is best for a pro to live in. If you wont tell us what city is best for a pro outside the US then stop wasting bandwidth

1. He would be banned if he begins describing non-casino games.

2. He's right that you're probably just not aware of the games that go on. For example, I'm vaguely aware of some pretty big invite-only games.

3. 8o8 is right in that it probably doesn't change the equation drastically. It's more like poker hubs are probably stronger than you realize and non-hubs don't have that advantage so they're probably comparitively worse than you realize.

let's say everything you just posted is true. i know about some amazing game- what's the upside in me posting about it?

would someone move from across the world or country for it? probably not. but maybe someone a few hours away decides to take a look and decides i'm right and does move. and maybe he tells a few of his nit friends. gradually the game goes to ****.

you're really underestimating how quickly a good game can go bad once people find out about it.and even if it doesn't go bad me posting about it definitely won't make it better.

I think we can agree that the vast majority of very good games in the US and probably most other places around the world happen in private and/or legally questionable settings. That's a pretty good reason for people not to talk about them on a public internet forum.

Ive never played in an underground game in my life so I have no idea how good they are. I assume when people talk about win rates and all that stuff they are talking about normal legal poker rooms.

I didnt realize we were talking about underground games at all when we were discussing the best city to be a pro poker player. All kinds of bad things can happen in those games from cheating to getting robbed to the game closing to you being uninvited.

If theres a great underground game in a big city with other legal poker rooms, then fine but you should never rely on that kind of game to be a pro. I think that fact should eliminate some city with no legal poker and just happens to have a great underground game from the list of best cities to play professionally in.

I don't.

The underground games I know run infrequently, maybe once a month or once every two months.

There's no way to replace a "M to F, 9 to 5" (which is probably poker for "W to S, 1 to 9" ) legal, big game.

Do you play these stakes regularly or are you just talking out of your ass? The reason I ask is because it seems like there a lot of people on the internet that claim "it's so easy" yet they aren't actually doing it themselves. Or they are thinking about poker from 2010 and aren't up to date with poker in 2018

Mike claims a 10bb an hour win rate and admits to playing in nitty games. When there isn't super loose money going into the pot, I find it hard to believe 10bb an hour is possible over the long term, especially if you are playing up to 40 hours a week where not all of those hours are going to be peak hours. I'm not accusing Mike of lying, but I think he is running above EV and it skews his mindset of "how easy it is".

I play professionally, and I actually listen to the advice on the forum. So people who just armchair post from there desk at work aren't doing anyone any favors when they post misinformation.

I appreciate the discussion. Some people are taking an extremely authoritative tone and it makes me question if they are qualified to do so.

You realize that when you say "Mike claims" and then finish up with "I'm not accusing Mike of lying" that you are basically saying you think Im lying, right?

The word "claims" implies that you dont believe me. Ive posted graphs many times. I'll gladly post my latest one if anyone wants to see it. I think I last posted one about 200 hours ago. My last 200 hours of 2/5 are at exactly $84.77/hr. Most of my hours are NOT peak hours. My "peak hour" win rate is 31% higher than my overall win rate so if I was playing just to maximize win rate, it would be considerably higher than what it is.

Lets analyze something here....

A) Lots of people hate my lines because I dont play like them.
B) People think 10+BB/hr at 2/5 is almost impossible.
c) I win at 10BB+/hr at 2/5

Do you see any coorelation there? Do you think it might be possible that these closed minded people who dont understand the lines I take could be wrong? Maybe some of my lines and strategy is superior and THAT is why I can obtain a win rate that they dont think is possible? Its like telling a baseball pitcher that you cant throw a ball more than 102 MPH...and telling him his arm angle is wrong...but hes throwing at 106 MPH using that supposedly wrong arm angle. It really cracks me up.

PS...exactly when did I see poker was easy? I never said anything about how "easy it is". I work very hard trying new lines, getting better at bluffing..ect. I try things over and over and thru trial and error, I keep what works and discard what doesnt seem to work and I dont give a rats ass what people on 2+2 think of my strategy because my results are what they are. If people want to keep their minds closed and cap their win rates because of it, that's their business. For what its worth, a year ago I thought 10BB+ win rate was next to impossible but Ive broken thru that barrier the last 1200ish hours and I can point exactly to the improvements Ive made to do that. I know what Im doing differently now that I wasnt doing then so I know its not just run good. Ive gotten better.

PSS...You would be better off ignoring most of the strategy advice you get here. Most of it is garbage just regurgitated back and forth between mediocre players.

Not sure why you made this about me though. Its about the best city to play as a pro.

It is, but what a poker player thinks of him or herself plays a lot into it.

Let's say you think you have the skills to beat the LA 5/10 and all you need is a bankroll. If it's achievable to sustain 10 bb/hr in notLA and COL is 75%, it's fine to list Winstar or other rural casinos as a stepping stone.

But if you have overestimated your readiness for 5/10, then it really matters how you're going to improve your skills, and matters a lot less where you're going to get a bankroll.

Mike,

I was responding to Callygypuan. I included you since you have been active in the thread and play professionally. You are also active in the LLSNL forum.

Calligpian said if you study LLSNL forum for a week that would make you a crusher at 2-5. It seems like he is making big claims without actually playing a lot of poker himself. He is acting like it is so easy when I can attest that it is not.

I don't know if he said that or not, but I can tell you that if you are a good player and then start reading the strat forums and heeding much of the advice given there, you will regress...not get better.

I will agree with that with the caveat that WinStar 2/5 doesnt have to be just a stepping stone to be a pro with a pretty nice income. You dont even have to play 5/10 or higher to be a pro. Most pro poker players dont play that high.

A top player can break $100,000k at 2/5. That's a pretty damned good living.

But lets say you arent happy with that and want to reach for the stars. So, you move to L.A. to play 5/10 and make more money. I think most of us will agree now that L.A. is pretty much the only U.S. city where you can play 5/10 full time hours.

$100K in N. Texas area which is where you would want to live and play at Winstar is equal to about $143,000 in L.A. You need 43% higher income in L.A just to be even COL wise.

If I make $50/hr at Winstar 2/5, you have to make $71/hr at L.A. 5/10 just to be about even with me. Can a $50/hr Winstar 2/5 player beat L.A. 5/10 for $71/hr? Im not sure but I would suspect so....but so what? You started playing 5/10 to make more money. You make more money but you havent increased your standard of living at all. You need to make a lot more than $71/hr in L.A. to live better than I could playing WinStar 2/5 at $50/hr.

Also, I could probably get maybe 25% of my hours at Winstar in 5/10 games to mix with 75% 2/5 games and easily be doing better overall than I could moving to L.A. to play 5/10 full time.


https://www.bankrate.com/calculators...alculator.aspx