I overlimped $5 straddle with QTo in the cutoff, button raises to 30, 3 players call, guy to my right is drunk, raises his cards, I see his hand being Q7 off. He calls, I fold. Dealer noticed that I saw my neighbors cards, stops the action, calls the floor, and announced that I had seen this guys cards. Floor decides not to disrupt the game and doesn't change anything. Dealer told me that the guy whos cards I saw were supposed to be dead in a normal ruling. Flop comes out QT3dd LOL

Thoughts?

Stick it in his eye. Oh you folded. Dealer is a moron

Seriously. Making an issue out of nothing.

In future rather than announcing you have seen his cards aloud, have a quiet word with the player after the hand and tell him to be more careful.

His cards are most certainly not dead.

If you had seen his cards during the deal, he might get replacement cards, or might not, depending on when you saw and how it was brought to dealers attention.

But after action, all that should happen is that dealer should announce that you have seen his cards, and to proceed accordingly. Once you fold, there is no reason to even do that, except maybe to have floor come over and handle drunk player who cannot protect his hand to keep you from gaining advantage every hand over the rest of the table.

Possibly there is a room rule that would make exposed cards dead, but if so that's a dumb rule. And it's probably not the case since the floor ruled correctly.

See dinesh above ... This spot is coming up a lot more often lately and there is a movement to not confirm or deny what you've seen by the 'offended' Player, but just announce it to the table if you remain in the hand.

I didn't see where you 'said' you saw it to the table/Dealer, only that you did observe the holding and then folded. If you had called and the Dealer had seen the spot, I would have them ask you what you 'think' you saw, if anything, and announce it to the table. I would NOT have the Player turn his cards over to 'confirm' your announcement or even verbally agree or disagree with your assesement. GL

If it keeps happening drunk guy should be forced to play with his cards face up as his neighbor can't be allowed to have an advantage over the table which he would if he keeps seeing drunks cards.

No, if it gets to this point, the drunk is told to leave the room. No one wants that, so try to keep him in line instead.

Yep.
Exactly
He didn't announce that he saw the cards. The dealer assumed he saw them and made a stink about it. OP said nothing.

I’m a dealer in Vegas and can most certainly tell you that your dealer was a moron. That guy’s hand is never dead.

If you’re not in the hand, then that information stays with you.

If you WERE in the hand, and announced that you had seen the other players hand, AND the floor was called... then I, as a floor, would confirm that the players hand is what you’re telling me, then flip it face up so all the other players can see.

Unfortunately, this is the fairest way to continue the hand and teach the nonchalant player a valuable lesson.

In 10 years of being in the poker industry, not once have I ever had someone say they can see another player’s hand in the middle of the hand. Only after the hand was completed (more times than I can count).

Kudos to you for being a stand-up guy.

Anyway, as I said, the hand is never dead.

However, just like any other card(s) that were exposed by the player, as soon as one player sees them, then all players must see them.

This is the trend that's changing in my area ... and I saw it at least twice on the WSOP streams last Summer handled the same way. There was also a very hairy situation at Aria in a high profile tournament where the masses thought the Floor was a little quick to expose a Player's card (Rick Solomon) during a hand that may or may not have contributed to a call of an all-in.

The cards are not turned over to 'verify' the information, because if our 'stand up' guy is wrong then we have even more to the story that didn't need to be out there.

When a case like this comes up, all our 'stand up' guy needs to do is inform the table what he thinks he saw IF he's going to remain in the hand. Cards are not verified via the Floor. GL

I'm not trying to diminish 'stand up', more so emphasize that it's 'good', correct .. and rare that it does come out during a hand.

If it’s one card, then yes you are correct. The floor would not just automatically flip the card face up. What I meant by verify was that the floor would look at the hand (privately) and check.

But if another player (who is in the hand) is saying he knows the exact hand another player has, then it would be verified by the floor, and if correct, turned face up.

No, it really should not be. Otherwise other players can angle additional info.

You're in a hand with a K high flush. "Hey, I saw the As flash in my neighbor's hand!" Now floor comes over and either verifies that he does have it, or verifies that he doesn't. That player gets screwed by your (potentially false) report.

All the dealer/floor should do is say "player reports that he saw the As". Now things are as fair as possible. Maybe you did see it, and the player loses (or maybe gets, depending on the board) action on his hand. Or maybe he doesn't have it and can pretend he does. Or he doesn't have it and has something else, better. Everyone gets to decide on their own how to play it, and you have done your duty reporting what you think you saw, and you can't angle anyone either.

Note that, during the deal, a report of a flashed card should simply be replaced, no questions asked, and definitely no verification either (though the dealer should flip it up to make sure everyone can see "what flashed"). You're replacing random with random, anyway. Cannot be easily angled either.

If dinesh and I agree on something ... It's probably time to perk up to the rule/trend. GL


PS .. And yes, I know I'm riding his coattails way more than the opposite ..

I agree, at that point in the hand it is far too late.

OP was saying this was preflop.

I agree that the potential damage is diminished by it being PF, but there is still no good reason to verify what was seen and then confirm/deny. "I saw an A." Now you get to find out if your neighbor has an Ace, which is usually helpful to know even PF, particularly if he has called.

It causes unnecessary damage, whether a small amount or a large amount, and no additional benefit. Better not to do it at all.

As I previously said, one card is a different story. But if player is stating the exact hand of another player, then that too deserves its own action.

Even for a report of both cards, I don't see any value in confirming/denying, and see the potential for harm. Plus, now you have to be clear about what you're denying. "I saw As2s." It was As2c. Or As3s. What do you say and do? Just show the As? Say "no you're wrong...about one of the cards"? No good reason to go through this performance, just say "player reports seeing As2s" and leave it at that. (Though I'd personally prefer the player just to say he believes he saw your hand, and not give any card specifics.) It also wastes time.

But if you disagree, fine. Let's agree to disagree.

I'm never looking at a player's cards to verify what another player claims to have seen.

I actually never said anything, the dealer noticed it and called the floor because other players were surprised that I folded those odds and he saw the drunk guy pick his cards up high. Nobody asked me what I saw or if I saw anything during the ruling either.


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Yes, we did sort of derail the OP ... Pretty much the masses agree that the Floor shouldn't have been called over ...

... So we latch onto the next best topic .. .. GL

You haven’t even begun to explain why. In my experience, this is not even common in Vegas where you deal.

Honestly, the only reason I can see the dealer doing this is if they have a history with the drunk player and they know that saying, "You need to protect your hand" to the drunk player will not end well. Not a valid reason IMO, but if they know this is going to continue to be an issue, I can see calling the floor over to have a talk with the drunk player about protecting his own hand.