This is from a session I had a while back. Was grinding in a live casino 1/2 game. It's getting late and I look down at what I believe was KJo. Called villain's preflop $10 raise. Flop came out low cards with a flush draw, villain cbets $12 and I call with overs. Turn bricks, goes check check. River bricks again, villain checks to me. Pot is about $40. I put villain on a busted flush draw/air and bet $28 with K high.

Villain tanks for quite a while - perhaps about 2 minutes or so. All of a sudden, he turns his cards face up and just over the line. I see he paired the 5 on the flop for what is now middle pair on this board. I take this as him having mucked his hand so I quickly muck mine as well, throwing it into the pile of burnt/mucked cards. To my surprise, dealer rules that his hand is still in play as villain's cards aren't positioned close enough to her to construe a muck. Since my hand is mucked, I am ruled to have folded out of turn and pot goes to the villain.

Just wondering, is dealer right in this spot? Always had the impression that cards over the line are considered mucked.

Room dependent but I think in many rooms that would not be considered mucked. For example, in my room the rule is a hand has to be released with a forward motion, face down to be considered a fold. But why would you insta muck your hand prior to the dealer pushing you the hand anyway? It sort of sounds like you weren't sure if villain mucked, and were trying to "lock it in" by quickly mucking yourself. Even if you knew for sure the house rule made his hand dead, You should never toss your cards in prior to getting the pot pushed to you.

I'm in the slow class here. How is him turning his cards up and showing a winning hand remotely close to mucking them?

The argument for a muck is that the player was facing a bet and discarded his hand. The real issue is did he discard his hand or merely expose it.... I think this is you had to have seen it to know scenario.

Exposing one's hole cards in a heads-up pot in a cash game is allowed in every room I've played in. As long as he didn't verbally declare a fold, or his hand was tossed into the muck or physically mucked by the dealer, his hand is live. Of course there are some rooms that declare exposed hole cards as dead hands, but that doesn't seem to be the case in your room.

This falls under the same category as so many other procedural issues at the poker table; protect your hand, protect your action. When I play live, I maintain physical possession of my cards until the dealer pushes the pot to me. I view it as a trade of sorts with the dealer; I get the pot, then the dealer gets my cards.

Did he turn them face u and place them on the table, or did he toss them face up towards the middle. The first is ambiguous, and many floors dislike killing identifiable hands that have not been clearly surrendered.

A simple 'Is that action?' or 'What does that mean?' could have clarified villains intent without displaying your hand strength. Or, even better, just sit there impassively until dealer does something.

wait for the action to be verified by the dealer before mucking a live hand. If the guy tabled his hand over the line, the dealer should have immediately verified "fold?" and at the same time muck his hand.

I agree with this ruling, although idk how fast the dealer clarified the action, but we can't always depend on having a quick thinking top quality dealer. Also, as a rule, I NEVER EVER release my cards, especially if I didn't show anything down, before the pot is pushed to me. If anything, this is the most important lesson to be learned here.

Playbig in many rooms that line is nothing more than a table decoration and means nothing. Don't put too much dependency on its presence.

He saw he was beat and tried to get the pot by shooting an angle.

Face down ,almost always considered a fold. Face up , clarification of action should occur before any thing else happens. Some places may rule it a muck , but most will not. In this case the OP acted a bit too soon.

yup

he basically tried to end the hand before the dealer had a chance to verify action.

Moral: don't ever instamuck, you don't look cool and someday it will come back to lose you a pot you would have won

I don't jump to that conclusion. Day in and day out I see players who seem to think it's cool to throw their hands away the second they think they won. It's bad but it's common.

I play in a room where they enforcer a hard betting line, but they make if very clear that the line has nothing to do with mucking cards. Placing cards face down or face up over the line does not automatically kill the cards.

Where I routinely play, the "rule" is that you cannot expose your hand. There is no penalty, per se, just a warning. However, if you expose your hand and that act creates action, then it can be deemed to have mucked. Which, to me, seems like it depends on what floor you get.

But this is the only place where I have heard of this rule being used to potentially kill a live hand.


The reason I asked is that I made a river bluff in a big pot in a limit game. Everyone folded on a board of A JJ 10 10 where my Q9 suited missed. He exposed his hand (playing the board too) and I waited. The dealer correctly clarified his action and he said, IDK, I guess I call, just too much in the pot.

This does not sound like a muck to me.

You made a huge mistake. You lose this pot unless he for some weird reason says he was folding.

My guess is OP would have insta-tabled and argued for a call if villain turned over Q-high in the same fashion.

+1

Not in my room. Not allowed to show cards. Even heads up.

Player's hand would still be live, but he would get a warning not to show cards again from the dealer. If he did it again, floor would be called and they would be having a chat...