Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
At least it's clear to me, if the last to act on the river, when facing a bet, tosses his cards at the dealer, either face up or face down, they have folded, their hand is dead, and the bettor gets the pot.
... could player 1 react to seeing player 2's hand, try to retrieve his "folded" hand from wherever it may be (dealers hand, in front of the flop, wherever it's identifiable), and table it claiming the pot? It seems like an unlikely scenario, but according to the replies here, player 1's hand is still live if it can be identified despite his initial intent to surrender the pot to player 2 rather than show his cards.
From Robert's Rules ..
Your hand is declared dead if:
(a)
You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).
And also this ...
Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
And then this ...
FOLD: To throw a hand away and relinquish all interest in a pot.
Koss has it down, but you have to go all the way to the Glossary to define 'FOLD' and tie it all together.
The key here, as stated above although not clearly defined, is that a player can't 'fold' at showdown. They can attempt to muck but the cards may be retrieved. Within the definition of FOLD there is no mention of 'facing action' or Showdown so there is a crack in the door.
I think the door is 'clearly' shut when facing action. But a 'first to show' player could pull an angle at Showdown by tossing their cards forward in an attempt to get the other player to show before completing their muck. In Koss' example the other player 'offered' information that the FTS player took advantage of (even to the point of SOSA).
To say this doesn't happen .. not often, but not quite .. We had a hand back in the 'forward motion' days at showdown where Koss' example came to light and the Floor ruled 'the mucked' hand dead due to forward motion. Well, lets just say we had to call the Sheriff in to calm down the 'losing' player. GL