I hope one day I get to play in a game and rip someone's cards out of there hands forcefully and maybe throw him on the floor and muck his hand. I'm waiting for the day someone says his hand wasn't protcted. Maybe he will pull a weapon and I'll panic move my hand and he willmuck it.
Lol so a dealer thinks a chip doesn't protect your cards? Keep dealing dude.

Saying someone has a gun to you to lift your hand isn't irrelevant either because after all your hand is no longer protected. Oh wait you don't think all my chips stacked and one I too of my cards isn't protected so why can't I just cut off your hand and muck it.

So many dumb Devils advocates.

Actually, if the guy shows up with the 5th 4 in the deck, I'd super extra ban him.

The line of thinking is, once V has mucked Hero's hand, he has violated the rules of the game and thus what he has is irrelevant.

To get back to the walking across the street metaphor, the problem with it is the guy driving 75 mph still gets convicted of a crime. Saying "He should've seen me driving like a maniac and not legally crossed the street!" is not a defense. V blatantly broke the rules of the game, did so on purpose, and even admitted as much verbally at the table. That Hero stood up and only put a chip on his cards, while not the best idea for protecting your hand, is not a defense against blatant cheating.

Say Hero remained seated with his arms and hands over his cards but V poked a finger under his wrist, retrieved the cards and mucked them while hero was watching the river come out. Hero still "didn't fully protect his hand" but V still blatantly cheated.

Blatant cheating is the far more egregious violation that occurred here compared to not fully protecting your cards and standing behind your seat.

that is really ****ed... what ended up happening? that should have him kicked out imo

OP posted that floor ruled the hand dead, all money returned to players as if hand never happened, V got a one week ban. Floor said all cards in the muck are dead regardless of how they got there.

Well apparently its not impossible that another player mucks the cards. And a dealer could so as well. And they might not have malicious intent when doing so .... as they could misinterpret the player getting up as abandoning his hand. And we have all heard stories about a dealer just reaching out and snatching cards for no apparent reason. Of course there is also the possibility that random drunk guy walking by accidentally causes a problem.

Yes in this case because it is heads and the villians conduct is pretty outrageous and he isn't even offering an excuse you may find you are protected because a floro may award you the pot.

But if we looka t the same scenario only there is a third player in the hand who does nothing wrong then what ???? you think a floor is going to give you the pot because you say you had the best hand?

If everybody starts protecting there cards more, it's going to slow the game down, create more confusion for the dealers and players to follow the action.

I think if a player mucks another player's live hand before showdown, the player that mucked should lose all claim to the pot and be banned for some time. This is such a gross violation of the rules and decorum of poker, if I was a floor, that's how I would rule. Any other ruling just introduces angling and freerolling possibilities if I decide to muck my opponents hand.

I don't see how the floor did not award the pot to the OP in this particular case. Is this a room that simply considers all mucked cards dead? Regardless of the V doing it? This would seem to be a very unusual incident calling for an unusual remedy. Maybe the floor just didn't want to deal with it, or maybe there were "other reg issues" at work IDK.

Maybe the OP was a bit careless, but he sure got screwed on this one IMHO.

If this happened, I'd declare they guy who forcefully mucked another player's hand dead and give the pot to the third player. However, I might say that the player who had his hand forcibly mucked gets his chips back, depending on (i) how much he was at fault, (ii) what cards the third player has and (iii) what the player whose hand was mucked claims to have. In no circumstances do I give anything in the pot to the guy who forcibly mucked another player's cards, no matter what his cards are.

Great point, if we're all having to build concrete walls around our cards, it's much more likely someone's going to act out of turn or a dealer will skip over a player in the hand because they legitimately had no way of knowing a player still had cards. The card protection issue here is being blown way out of proportion. One guy cheated and egregiously broke the rules of the game. One guy stood up beside his chair. Please.

I never let go of my cards until I decide to fold or the pot is pushed my way. Everyone can still see my cards - I make sure of it. I do not slow the game down.

This isn't brain science people.

And thus you can't simply rely on well I don;t have to protect my cards because if villian mucks my hand I get the pot ......

I don't think anyone here has claimed either that hero doesn't have to protect his cards or that you'd get the same result in a multi-way pot. Instead, given the facts in OP's situation, chiding him for not protecting his hand enough is effectively blaming the victim.

As a (bad) analogy, it's like blaming a woman who went out with Bill Cosby for not keeping a closer eye on her drink. She should do that, but her mistake pales in comparison to someone who is intentionally breaking the rules, so feels a little petty/pedantic to mention it.

Better analogy is someone leaving a laptop on the frontseat of his car with the door unlocked.

The thief is to blame but a little bit of prevention would have prevented it.

lol at anyone ITT who is blaming the OP for not protecting his hand "enough."

He is the one who claimed his hand was protected.

Place a pile of **** on top of your cards, that oughtta keep these pesky little cheaters at bay.

I would never muck another player's cards.

But if I am in a pot with Mr Stan Dup and I show my hand at Showdown and if the dealer or another player reaches over and mucks his cards or if a third player in the pot throws his cards into Stan's so they are indistinguishable, I will gladly take the pot.

I might buy him a cup of coffee. Decaf.

Terrible ruling. If I'm floor here, there is no way I'm letting anyone get their money back if they manage to kill someone else's winning hand. Villain's hand is dead, pot is awarded to Hero, period. And Villain should be perm-barred by any self-respecting establishment.

Villain's hand is dead, so it makes absolutely no difference if it was the better hand or not. Whatever cards you had, they are now the winning hand. No need to go even a single step further down this road.


q/q

Honestly there is really no need for analogies. The act itself is egregious enough.

Villain was heads-up at showdown and reached over and physically mucked his sole opponents live protected cards before Hero could reveal them. That should automatically disqualify Villain from any claim to the pot, along with a ban of some time (Suit said 60 days).

A lot of people seem to agree. I don't get why a minority seems to think not invulnerable means not protected.

I really think the guy should have been made a shining example of and permanently ban him, it was clear cheating being nervous his KK wasn't good when his all in was called.

Question I have is how on earth did he have time to reach over, slide your cards to the muck from across the table and shuffle them in? When standing did you move away from the table or something? I doubt the 55 year old guy moved like a ninja.

As soon as anyone started to even touch my live cards; I would immediately grab their wrist or grab at my cards for protection. As soon as he tabled KK you should have been in the motion to grabbing your cards to flip over the AA (Or even grabbing cards to prepare to show as the River hits)

Then again Dealer also should have had time to immediately stop him, and with all the antics you described doesn't sound like a well run casino.

This thread cracks me up.

I've never seen a dealer protect the muck better than I do...but there's no way I'm expecting this move, my guard is down, and I would watch haplessly as these events unfolded. It would take less than a half a second for me to realize what had happened, but then it would be too late.

Protecting the muck means don't let people take cards OUT of it. You keep your hand over it so can sense when someone is reaching for it. The only time you're on your guard to keep cards from ENTERING the muck is in a tournament all-in, when all cards must he tabled and as not allowed to be mucked. I once had a player complain to management when I physically prevented his cards from entering the muck--he was surprised to meet such resistance, and certain I was wrong to do it, because he had never seen a dealer do that before.

So take it from the World's Greatest Muck Protector...you can't blame a guy for being unprepared for something that NONE OF US has ever seen before.

OP, just going from your screen name, but was this at Cherokee?