But I have taken samples from many other cities, and consistently found that Vegas games are far nittier than games in those other cities. In the last 4 years since switching from online to live I've played over 2000 hours of poker in Vegas, and I've played in 115 different poker rooms, spread across 4 countries, and 14 US states. I can't help but feel qualified to assess the game "toughness" across regions.

It's not so much that the games are "tough," which is difficult to define, it's that they are comparatively tougher than the games in most other cities. Playing with nits is also boring. The average 1/3nl or 2/5nl pot in Vegas is significantly smaller than the average pot at those same stakes in other regions. And the number of players per table that are trying to make a living from poker seems to be higher in Vegas than anywhere else. Vegas is the only place where there are lots of players making or trying to make a living playing 1/2 and 1/3. So it's the only place where even at small stakes, you have to share the fish with "professionals."

Vegas has many perks. Cheap hotels, free drinks, plenty to do, plenty of poker rooms to choose from especially at small stakes, lowest rake in the country, best comps, freerolls for locals, low cost of living, etc. All of those things are good, but all of those things attract and encourage nitty players. It's undeniable that games in Vegas have proportionally more nits than games in California, Florida, Maryland, Canada, the midwest, etc.

Lets assume you are correct that Vegas is more nitty than anywhere else. I have no reason to doubt you. It seemed nittish when I was there last also.

So what? A good player who knows how to adjust to a known nitty game, should still be able to crush that game. I play a ton during the daytime in Florida with some of the oldest crustiest guys in the world. They have no idea how to adjust to me. Sure I dont win many big pots because there arent many big pots, but I still beat the game pretty easily. Its all about adjusting to the game.

One thing is for sure, the variance in these nitty games is much much lower.

Well, I agree with all this. And I have a strong win rate in small stakes Vegas games in the sample I've collected. I just find looser games with bigger pots are more profitable, and more fun.

You're obviously qualified to surmise Vegas if you've played over 2000 hours there, but I'd be curious how much time you've spent in any ONE particular city or casino outside of Vegas. If you haven't spent considerable time in another area, it's tough to say for sure if that area is genuinely softer in the long run. I've seen plenty of rooms that are nit fests or not particularly good rooms at certain parts of the year but then a gold mine during other parts of the year. Maybe your sample size is skewed if you were visiting during the good times but not considering how it would be year round or even a few years from now.

These reasons are why I think Vegas is a generally safe bet to play: because of so many choices and volume. Back before Black Friday, there would be debates about the best online Poker Room. I felt VERY confident that PokerStars was hands down the best because it had so many games. Some players would argue that other sites like FullTilt or even smaller sites like UltimateBet were better because they weren't as "reg infested". But, the thing I noticed was that even though there were a TON of regs and annoying short stackers, it didn't change the fact there were also a TON of fish. So, too, in Vegas, generally speaking, there are just so many rooms and tables that there should always be a good game.

My last trip to Vegas last November, I got seated in the morning at a 1/3 table in Aria that I could tell sucked after my first 3 hands. Everyone had a full stack and acted like they had played a lot of poker over the years. There wasn't much friendly banter. I requested a table change to a specific table that looked good. I moved about 10 minutes later. I doubled up in less than an hour at the new table. I could have sat at that other table for 8 hours and perhaps not doubled up unless I coolered someone.

So, there probably ARE lot of bad games in Vegas but there are also a lot of GOOD games, too, I'd wager.

I am interested though in visiting other cities and areas where they games are good. Maryland sounds like a good candidate. I keep hearing "Florida" but that's pretty vague. Someone said West Palm Beach is pretty good. Any others that stand out? However, any area if there's not ALWAYS at least 5 or more 2/5 tables and 20 plus 1/3 tables, I have a hard time believing it would be better than Vegas. Again, choices are important.

It's interesting what you say about Pokerstars, because I differ there too. I played in immense amount of online poker, and had 6 digit profits on 3 sites, and 5 digit profits on 2 other sites. There are 6 sites that I put in high volume at (500k-4M hands per site). The 6th is pokerstars, where I'm lifetime down a small amount. The games there always felt tougher, and clearly they were. I also think a smaller player pool is easier to operate in, whereas a giant player pool like pokerstars always made things feel almost anonymous in comparison.

In general I don't feel a high volume of games is necessary. I'd rather be at a casino that has 3 games that are all very soft, than a casino that has 20 games and only 6 of them are very soft.

Also, if that's your qualification, there's only about 3 cities you can play in.

I can count 5 options. I quite like those criteria myself for gauging a region. Especially important if you are a night owl who preys on early morning games. I certainly haven't played everywhere in the US though so maybe others can chime in.

Anyways here's my list:

Vegas (this is for sure the only option where the 25 tables of 24/7 NLH games you seek are all within walking distance, a huge plus in my opinion)
LA
Maryland
Twin River/Foxwoods/Mohegan area
Philadelphia/Atlantic City area

Honorable mention to both the Tampa and the Miami/South Florida regions. They have many rooms that are closed between about 4-9am but they also each have a Hard Rock room that is open 24/7. So there is a dip in options below your desired level during those off peak hours, but other times of day both metro areas easily have the volume you seek as well

I agree completely.
stars games were garbage compared to some other sites like bodog and pacific.

same with smaller casinos. often times they have the best games and you'll get a seat in them. in the bigger rooms if youre not there early you're often not going to get into the good games because the transfer lists are really long. of course sometimes the dildos on their tablets are so memorized for their movies they dont notice those games so the lists aren't quite so long for them.

My thoughts exactly.

Having played in every state discussed normally except MD, I feel that Vegas is often nittier but the structures we have out here are often so much better (particularly than CA) that it is easier to make money out here with less. That is, in Cali, if you're playing larger than 2/5, rake starts to become less important and there are a ton of degen gamblers in LA even in 10/20+. If you're trying to play 1/2, there's a lot of gambling but also the structures require it to some extent.

Florida was a joke when I went in 2012. I felt like I was playing games from 2008 or so in Vegas. However, eventually every market will catch up and only the good players, degens, and tourists keep playing after a while. In ten years, all the markets for poker will be closer to each other, with LA probably still having the most degen heavy gambling. LV will always have the tourists, but tourists aren't as consistently terrible as in the past. Florida will probably have the softest regulars still, but not as easy.

But what LV will always have for about 2-3 months of the year is the WSOP and tons of action during March Madness and other sporting events. Too bad Macau's poker market isn't really working out.

How is AKA's post any different than the OP?


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Thank you.

He's gone quiet since a lot of other people have come in to the thread agreeing the games are super soft.

Its all relative. People who struggle in a game or cant beat it always think its super tough. Maybe Vegas IS nitty. That doesnt mean you cant make good money there. It just means you cant have a good win rate there if you are also nitty and you dont know how or arent willing to adjust your game to your surroundings.

Those same people would probably do a lot better in an action game.

I play in S. Florida and everyone thinks the games are super soft here. Again, its all relative. Some rooms are soft and full of action. Others are full of nitty OMCs. I happen to play in the room that among locals is considered hands down the toughest room, but its also the nicest and the closest to my house. Players in this room dont throw chips at you, you have to take them from them, but its not that hard to do if you know how to adjust. Again, its all relative.

lol.. After reading this thread, moving to Vegas and strategically taking advantage of the comps sounds like an awesome idea. But what I don't understand is this correlation between being a comp-chaser and a nit? I play almost exclusively 2/5 6-max these days, so I'd have a hard time having the patience to be a nit in a 9-handed game lol. Is it possible to be a comp-chasing lagtard?

Sure, but look at the economics. If you're a +10 bb/hr winner at 2/5, the $2/hr in comps they offer is less than the variability between 2/5 games. What's going to drive your location selection is the availability of a shorthanded mid-tier game and the quality of those games.

Comp chasers get their reputations because the comps are a big portion of their winnings. They make +1 bb/hr at 1/2 and double that with their comps. So they're driven by where the comps are best, rather than the availability of a 1/2 that is beatable for 1 bb/hr (which is ubiquitous).

I couldnt agree with you more . Vegas day games especially worse ive felt than day games in other places . Still beatable , but like you said , smaller pots , nittier , and a busload of locals following the promos . And the bitter old vegas dayguys gotta be the most bitter and miserable bunch of all on a day to day basis . No matter how tough you are , this still means something in the long run . Many break even players using the promos to come out ahead makes for tougher than average games for sure....definetly lots of cheap lodging options especially if willing to share an apartment/condo though . And always a game just up the street and a good option for the guy putting in volume

haha yea I put myself in the marginally winning category. That's why the comps sound so lucrative. It just seems strange to me that nittiness is associated with it. You can be a barely winning player with all kinds of different styles. :P

Sure, and some obese people can run marathons. But most people who run marathons are skinny.

The vast majority of loose players are losing players. It's the nature of 9 and 10 handed poker. Most players who play very tight are also losing players, but with rakeback (comps, freerolls, etc) some of these players become slight winners or at least have themselves a free or nearly free hobby.

the small Aria PLO game is amazingly good considering how the structure is set up..The bigger PLO game has amazing action..people complaining about how the NL Holden action sucks in Vegas need to expand their knowledge of poker. Really.. you deserve to go flat if you can't adjust in this business..

Vegas NL is so 2005..(big blind NL games we're fantastic back then)In fact all across the country, NL games do nothing but get tougher and tougher..

The tournaments too..I remember back in the late 90's I was probably one of the top100 NL players in the world..Now I'm probably one of the top 100,000 players in the world...The game is too easy to figure out and too easy to beat down the weak players..Sooner or later they give up and leave the scene

This. Don't listen to these people. They're just a bunch of losing players.