Hey all,

I played a few tournies at borgata this past weekend and have a ruling question. I ended up opening aq in mtt and some guy shoved a short stack. When he tables his cards, one touched the muck face down (kinda slid under them) but the care was easily identified and flipped over for dealer and the hand proceeded to me winning (hand was ak). When I saw this happen I said the hand was dead bc his card hit the muck face down. The dealer said no and said to not even bother the floor.

I’m just wondering if this hand should have been ruled dead? Other players said no bc it was an all in but I’ve seen before in a cardroom where a card hit the muck face down and the dealer said the hand was dead. I sucked out anyways but I felt the hand should have been dead once card face down hit the muck. Thanks for any thoughts on this.

You're describing a magic muck, that any time a card hits the muck (or sometimes even the dealer) it's automatically dead. This isn't a thing in a lot of casinos. It's better for the game that the best hand wins the pot, always, and as long as the hand is retrievable from the muck, the hand is still live.

Just to add to the above, the reason the hand was live is almost certainly not because the player was all-in. Whoever told you that is confusing it with the rule that you cannot fold a hand when all-in. You can definitely muck an all-in hand if you try hard enough!

The TDA rules say you can't muck a hand when all in. Sure, if a player decides to try and push his cards past a dealer who should be protecting the muck anyway, and somehow jam them in the muck pile to the point that they are irretrievable, then yes, it is physically possible to muck, but it is also against the rules. But barring that unlikely scenario, just a player tossing in his cards towards the muck, as long as they can be retrieved, does not kill a hand.


16: Face Up for All-Ins
All hands will be tabled without delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other players in the hand is complete. No player who is either all-in or has called all betting action may muck his or her hand without tabling. All hands in both the main and side pot(s) must be tabled and are live. See Illustration Addendum.

1- as above, no it is not dead if it is identifiable.

2- This is true even if he is not all-in, but if he is, that is a reason not to allow him to muck his hand even if he wants to (which he didn't in this case).

3- I'm guessing albedoa is saying that, if you try hard enough, you can force muck your hand into the muck, and then what can anyone do to unmuck it? But... don't do that. First because it makes you a jerk. Second because you will (should) get penalized for it.

If it's identifiable, it is live.

To me, trying to gain advantages through technicalities is pretty close to angle shooting. You know he wasn't trying to muck. You know he gained no advantage (as there was no action being faced, so he couldn't influence any decision). You know there is no chance he switched cards. yet you are trying to kill his hand. Play poker, man. You are the reason why they made rule #1.

Yea I def was trying to angle shoot here. If a player accidentally has a card hit muck face down, I’m going to try to take pot without any run out of cards. It would be stupid not to. The card was clearly and easily identifiable so the ruling was fine in my view. I feel it would be stupid to not try to take the pot down without a run out of cards but hey call me an angle shooter, etc (idc).

Thanks for clarifying this situation.

You sound like a great guy to play with. And yes, what you did is essentially the same as angle shooting, whether you have the self awareness to realize it or not.

Usually I don’t like for dealers to tell players to not even bother calling the floor. But in this case it sounds like the perfect reaction, especially if he said it in an annoyed way.

Great point! I also announce "flush" or "straight" at showdown when I miss. I'm going to try to take a pot without the best hand at showdown if I can. It would be stupid not to.

We don’t need a leap in hypotheticals to imagine what it takes to physically muck a hand. The card in the OP “kinda slid under” the muck without any pushing or jamming or deciding. The hand was live because of the care taken to identify it.

Right. My initial impression was that the other players were claiming it was live because it’s impossible for an all-in hand to not be live, which is obviously not true. As it turns out, I misinterpreted the motives behind OP’s protests anyway, so I am probably wrong about other aspects too :P

This hand is live as long as it is identifiable. Hands must be tabled when there is an all-in and a call to avoid chip dumping in a tournament.

dont angle shoot.

I would never do that lol. That’s crossing a line. It’s not my fault some idiot slams his cards down and they are face down when all in and touch muck.

Sure, and if the dealer ruled the hand dead, you are in the clear. But calling the floor to lobby to kill a hand that is completely identifiable is a whole different matter. I guess you don't see that, and really, nothing anyone says here will convince you that what you did was essentially angle shooting. When you get a reputation at your regular card room as 'that guy', though, you really shouldn't be surprised (though I suspect you will be).

Not sure what your point was here. I was referring to your comment that you made that you can muck when all in if you try hard enough. That's true if you force the issue, but it is against the rules. But you incorrectly stated that the rule says you cannot fold when all in, when in fact it says you cannot muck when all in. You got the terms confused.

It's not my fault some idiot mucks without seeing the hand I declared. Lesson learned IMO.

This.

Oh sorry, yes you’re right and I’m wrong. I mixed up the terms and muddied my point.

NP. I often do the same thing. What's so clear in my mind often ends up being not so clear when I type it in a post.

What they're saying is trying to get the hand killed is crossing the same line.