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Old 06-05-2011, 08:01 AM   #201
Boa Hancock
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
No opinions are going to change in this thread or the larger debate. People who don't want to tip have made up their minds as have the people on the pro tipping side. We can flog the horse, but that's all that is going to happen.
Not totally true. My opinions have changed over time. Most of the people who post in this thread will have fixed opinions, but there are always the lurkers and people new to b&m poker who will read this thread (but not post) who are looking to understand what the arguments are.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:25 PM   #202
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot uniform View Post
I assume by "99.999999%" you mean "about half, including fewer than half of high stakes players". (Re the high stakes part, there's another thread where that's being discussed right now.)

Why the absurd hyperbole? Why can't everyone just state his position clearly and calmly, without getting all worked up about this? One way or the other, it really isn't important at all whether any given person tips, and isn't very important whether anyone tips. For an individual decision, it's a buck or two now or then, one way or the other. For the group, it's one business model versus a slightly different one. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it does mean that the righteous indignation and fits of apoplexy are pretty silly.
No, I meant 99.999999%. You can''t possibly serious in thinking that most people tip $2 or less on a $2000 pot. Keep in mind that this is a virutally impossible 1/2 NL pot and an enormous one at 2/5NL, and a pretty big one at 5/10 NL. I don't tihnk I've ever seen someone stiff or throw $2 on a pot anywhere close to this size.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:30 PM   #203
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot uniform View Post
I have the impression that the most vitriolic members of the pro-tipping side are not dealers themselves. (I could be wrong about this.) If I'm right, I truly do not understand the vehemence and vitriol of their arguments.

The argument seems to boil down to "you're evil" on one side and "you're stupid" on the other. Each of these positions is absurd, of course, but they continue to be espoused. It's easier to dismiss the "you're stupid" side, because it's clear that people have the choice to tip, and tip heavily, if they choose and that nothing that makes people feel good about themselves is truly stupid. It's harder to dismiss the "you're evil" side because the argument that failure to tip is immoral is complicated — but when you look deeply into it you realize it's just as ridiculous.
Because there's no reason not to tip. If people all stopped tipping, you'd lose that money back anyway in the form of a greatly increased rake. Also, it barely affects your winrate, and it's not going to make a difference in your life three weeks from now if you cashout $372 or $383 from your 1/2 NL session. You're better served helping people to make a living when they work hard and run your games smoothly, and it's pleasing to make people feel good and have an enjoyable time instead of nitting it up and obsessing about saving that $1
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:50 PM   #204
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Ibuprofen View Post

While I don't blame dealers for being biased, I stand by my earlier remark that they deserve minimum wage. 2OutNoProb proved why in his response, by making excuses on the topic of mistakes. Minimum wage workers point fingers and make excuses; professionals own up to them and ensure they never happen again.
Where I worked, making excuses for mistakes was a pretty big no-no. Quite a few dealers lost their jobs for not being professional, and also for making the same mistakes over and over. Maybe there are some casinos that put up with a lot of mistakes, but in my experience, there wasn't a lot of tolerance for mistakes.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #205
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I love all these big words and business module stuff, its a tip not a business model. Save the blah blah blah and go back to the seventies or Berkely or whatever never never land you live in. Bottom line if you play for a living and a few dollars in tips makes it so you cant make it at poker its not the dealers its you period, why dont you go get one of those 7 dollar a hour jobs you expect us to work.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:29 PM   #206
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Meh, your philosophy is generous and makes sense. So you've either gotta stick to your guns and not care what people think or care what people think and use a strategy that costs no more but creates less friction. I wouldn't consider this a hill worth dying on, so i'd just stop tipping for the <$20 pots and tip a nickel on $2k. Better to keep the table good-natured.

One thing i know: Trying to "explain the strategy above" is at best fruitless, at worst -EV. Do you really want the table perceiving you as someone who ponders tip structures?
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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
Pretty reasonable IMO considering the times you are tipping on tiny 3xBB or 5xBB pots that most people aren't, seems like this compensates fairly for the times you tip the same on bigger pots, which don't occur all that frequently anyway
Eff the table! I just wanna know if it's +ev ... I know it's "fruitless" but if it's just a sound strat to not tip when there's no flop and tip a dollar, and two dollars for 15bb> pot (I play LHE) rather than what I originally stated?

I'm just looking for a simple yah or nay on my original post here in this thread - from a +/- ev point of view. thanks
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:33 PM   #207
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by BAEVentures View Post
Tipping the floor is something that will pay monster dividends in the long run.
Very good point. Some places divide the functions of floor and brush (or sign-up desk); it may vary who's actually responsible for a table change.

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however, I think I will be changing my tipping procedure this week to tipping $2 per half hour.
You're welcome to do it however, but expect to get some flak if this means you stiff dealers in huge pots until the end of the down. As noted above, you can give all the rational explanations in the world (-EV, why would you want to be perceived as rational?) but you'll still look cheap.

The LAG thing is valid. (I question whether it's a huge deal or a tiny deal.) If it bugs you, don't tip on smallish pots, then tip at the end of the down. But people WILL notice if you win > $200 pots and don't tip at the end of that hand.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot uniform View Post
It's about what we're expected to do because other people do it, and anyone pretending it's anything more is being obtuse.
Agree 100%. I try to separate my tipping custom from generosity, and i try to be a generous person when away from the tables.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
No, I meant 99.999999%.
Continuing to insist on hyperbole and deny that it's hyperbole looks silly.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
Because there's no reason not to tip.
For non-tippers, i'm sure that freeloading off a system where the rest of us subsidize their low rakes is a perfectly good reason not to tip. IOW, the system isn't going to break down because of their non-tipping policy as long as there are enough of us suckers.

See free rider problem.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:37 PM   #208
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Continuing to insist on hyperbole and deny that it's hyperbole looks silly.
100 people in a casino win a $2000 pot in a poker game. Without knowing any other factors, give me the % of them you think would tip more than $2? Am I nuts and way off by saying it's pretty high?
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:45 PM   #209
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
100 people in a casino win a $2000 pot in a poker game. Without knowing any other factors, give me the % of them you think would tip more than $2? Am I nuts and way off by saying it's pretty high?
You're saying that 100 out of 100 people would. (99.999999999%*100 is a lot closer to 100 than 99.) Knowing that there are people out there who do not tip, whether by choice or through ignorance (i.e., new players), it is disingenuous to maintain that all 100 people would tip, let alone tip more than $2.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:04 PM   #210
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

95% would tip at all. 80% would tip > $2. Just WAG but i'm quite certain better than yours.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:07 PM   #211
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by gjpsr View Post
I love all these big words and business module stuff, its a tip not a business model. Save the blah blah blah and go back to the seventies or Berkely or whatever never never land you live in. Bottom line if you play for a living and a few dollars in tips makes it so you cant make it at poker its not the dealers its you period, why dont you go get one of those 7 dollar a hour jobs you expect us to work.
Again, if you play for a living and consider $5000 chump change, send me a check.

And if one "stiff" in the casino means a dealer cannot make his rent payment, maybe he is in the wrong line of work.

Clue: Incompetent management will cost many dealers 1-2 downs a day. That is more lost income than any one "stiff" will cost the dealer.

I hear "we only deal part time" and "we don't deal a full 8 hour a shift" as an reason to tip more.

Those are the "stiff"'s fault?

If you only get 4 shifts and are only in the box 4 hours a shift, and you have "I take 10 seconds for all my decisions" 'pros' at your table slowing you down to 25 hands an hour, you will deal 400 hands a week.

If you are in a well run room, 5 shifts a week, 6 hrs a shift in the box, and 'fast' Limit games at 40hands/hr, you deal 1200 hands a week. (this is what San Jose dealers were making a couple of years ago).

400 hands vs 1200 hands.

One dealer is going to do well, even with occasional "stiffs". The other dealer is counting on each pot being tipped.

So, should we tip Mr 400 hands more per hand to make up the difference?

That is the system everybody seems to love. Puts the dealer at the mercy of the management.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:11 PM   #212
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Using the idea of a earlier poster and change the business model, lets say the dealers are now paid by the casino by the hour. Depending on the cost of living in your state {wages would be higher in La or NY } lets take a average in the middle and say 24.00 a hour plus ben. which would cost 3 more a hour for the casino. Thats 27 times 40 = 1080.00 week Taking Federal min wage at 7.25 hour and add 3 for ben. = 10.25 times 40 =410 current cost to casino per dealer per week. Thats minus 670 EV for those who love to bring it up so much. Now pray tell where does the 2.5 times cost make up come from? anyone? anyone? YOU thats who. I would change to this system in a heartbeat because i know what I would make every week not having to depend on the kindness or lack of kindness from others to feed my family. What i would enjoy though is watching the EV is everthing crowd seeing their ev module destroyed by 12$ rake at 1-2 and 15 a half hr 2-5.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:17 PM   #213
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by gjpsr View Post
What i would enjoy though is watching the EV is everthing crowd seeing their ev module destroyed by 12$ rake at 1-2 and 15 a half hr 2-5.
You get tipped an average of $6 per pot or more at $1-2?
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:17 PM   #214
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by gjpsr View Post
Using the idea of a earlier poster and change the business model,
As I have posted in another thread, the rake would have to be increased so that the average rake is $2 more per hand to give the dealer a fixed wage that equates to a $1 tip on every hand.

No, it doesn't mean that the rake will have to double/triple.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:20 PM   #215
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
As I have posted in another thread, the rake would have to be increased so that the average rake is $2 more per hand to give the dealer a fixed wage that equates to a $1 tip on every hand
I don't follow. Where's the other $1/hand going?
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:30 PM   #216
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Ah no, much more than 2$ much more 2.5 times current rake thats just to make the same amount for the casino with increased cost each dealer at min wage plus cost 10.25 per hour now the rest of our pay is tips. Increase that to say 24 plus everything goes up by 2.5 times. Sidebar the best dealers would not work for that the very best in my room get 34 or so hands per down. so you do the math.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:33 PM   #217
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I don't know where you got the $24 number -- i gather it's some sort of "living wage" standard -- but never mind that for a second. Increasing dealer salary 2.5x doesn't increase casino costs 2.5x. Do you see why?

If a dealer gets out 30 hands an hour while active and sits fallow half their time, then increasing rake $1 / hand should be enough to compensate them an additional $15 / hour (inclusive of benefits). Do you see why?

And do dealers in PHL really make $10.25 / hour plus tips? I won't tip as much there as i would elsewhere, if this is the case.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:35 PM   #218
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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I don't follow. Where's the other $1/hand going?
Locally, additional $2 drop means $0.30 more to City. Then, increasing the official wage means adding another $0.20 or so in FICA and other taxes the employer has to pay. That is $0.50 of the $1. If the house ups the rake, you know they will insist on their cut.

The $2 figure was a rounded number to show that the claims that rake would go from $5 to $15 were way off. Maybe $1.50 "average" increase would cover everything, but we know the casinos will take their cut.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:39 PM   #219
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

AKQJ10 the rake goes to the casino not dealers so 12 rake at 1-2 is theirs I would make a salery,And that salery will cost you the increased rake but you dont have to tip anymore and now I can now have a budget cause I know how much I will make. So no we dont get tipped 6 a pot in a 1-2 game that money would be to house.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:43 PM   #220
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by gjpsr View Post
Using the idea of a earlier poster and change the business model, lets say the dealers are now paid by the casino by the hour. Depending on the cost of living in your state {wages would be higher in La or NY } lets take a average in the middle and say 24.00 a hour plus ben. which would cost 3 more a hour for the casino. Thats 27 times 40 = 1080.00 week Taking Federal min wage at 7.25 hour and add 3 for ben. = 10.25 times 40 =410 current cost to casino per dealer per week. Thats minus 670 EV for those who love to bring it up so much. Now pray tell where does the 2.5 times cost make up come from? anyone? anyone? YOU thats who. I would change to this system in a heartbeat because i know what I would make every week not having to depend on the kindness or lack of kindness from others to feed my family. What i would enjoy though is watching the EV is everything crowd seeing their ev module destroyed by 12$ rake at 1-2 and 15 a half hr 2-5.
Are you arguing that if the dealers were paid 3x their present wage with no increase in other cost encountered by the casino, ie.electricity, property taxes, security, cage personnels, cleaning etc were held fixed then the casino would have to increase the rake by the same 3x?.

Last edited by JohnWilkes; 06-05-2011 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:47 PM   #221
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

1/2 NL or 2/5 (5/5) NL game, you figure 30 hands an hour, an average tip of a bit more than $1/hand, since some are generous and go way above $1 when they win a decent sized pot, but there are comparitively few who don't tip at all. Thus, average per hour that comes off the table in tips is probably $35-$40. If you eliminated tipping, you'd need to replace $35-$40 an hour via the rake. A new model would have to be created, and it wouldn't be as simple as making it now a max of $5 a hand instead of $4 per hand (at a 10% rate), since this doesn't guarantee making the $40 up.

How about home games with no rake? Some provide a dealer for convenience and ease. Nothing comes off the table but tips. What if 4 or 6 or 10 people on here who don't tip are in the game, what happens? Think the dealer is going to suddenly do it for nothing because you don't feel like paying someone "for just doing their job"? Should it be on the host now to pay out of his pocket for the service everyone else is benefitting from?
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:48 PM   #222
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Im not increasing it one Penny that is what we make now. What you think we make 10$ a hr. there are dealers who make 30k a year there are also dealers who make 80k a year but all make more than 20 hr with ben. in a casino, maybe not small cardroom only places but everywhere else.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:53 PM   #223
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
How about home games with no rake?
What do home games have to do with the price of tea in China? I presume that if dealers weren't getting tipped enough, the organizer of the game would approach the players about the problem and either charge a fixed "tip" at the door (which might or might not run afoul of the law) or let the players deal.

Your comparison is about as relevant as me pointing out that at my day job, i don't tip the people who keep the network running, the Windows or UNIX support staff, or the database administrators.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:54 PM   #224
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Right now tips make up about 70 percent of our hourly rate. If you have to inrease cost to casino by 70 percent if you dont tip what do you think will happen.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:59 PM   #225
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Right now tips make up about 70 percent of our hourly rate. If you have to inrease cost to casino by 70 percent if you dont tip what do you think will happen.
Look. I told you. In order to make the pay of the dealer the equivalent of current pay + $1 hand, the casino would have to increase the rake so that it generates an average of $2 a hand more. That is it. Not triple the rake.
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