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Old 06-04-2011, 01:49 PM   #176
BAEVentures
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishsticks68 View Post
I think is a great idea. If every player tipped me like this I would be very happy and it doesn't kill the players win rates
Here's the problem with this though in my two cents...Not all players are tipping like this. So let's say for the 30 minutes you are on my table, I scoop 8 out of 15 pots. You are now getting tipped $2 for 8 hands played... and likely only making ~$7 more from the other hands dealt...

This is my one concern with me transitioning to this method, however, given my LAG style of play, and the number of small pots I win, it's really hurting my WR tipping out for every pot I win...

RE: $1400 tipped in my last 150 hours of play...
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #177
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
1) It essentially takes the same amount of time and effort to spell something correctly, or formulate a sentence correctly, as it does to do it incorrectly. We're talking simply words and phrases here that serve to bring your point across in an intelligent fashion. You're telling people how unintelligent they are for being dealers, then speaking as if you didn't get past 3rd grade. Thus, the whole "it's the internet, not a legal brief" argument fails.



2) The same could be said of many jobs, some of which pay very well and make people very happy. For the 2nd time, what is it that you do for a living?



3) Yet again, it's tough to make your point when you type things like this. I as well as others will happily debate with you, but this isn't even readable, no one has any idea what this could even mean.



4) No one did this. I simply asked, increduously, if the guy was serious about tipping $2 on $2000. I stated that it would say a lot about a person if they did this. If you were to do this in any other walk of life in the US - restaurant, bar, etc - you would get laughed at for being socially inept. Period. A $2000 pot at a low to medium stakes game takes effort to tabulate as well as cuts into the number of hands to be dealt during that down. Thus, the pot size does make a difference.



5) I don't understand this. I'm not a dealer. I never said I was, I'm not sure why you'd think I am. So, your comment doesn't apply to me. FWIW, there are a couple of dealers in this thread, but most of the people in the pro-tipping crowd here are simply players who advocate that side of the argument.
It's none of your business what I do for a living though from your tone I'm not surprised that you're out of touch enough to think you should expect an answer to that.

Learn to read. There's nothing in there that is remotely difficult to comprehend. If you want to play debate club and just try to score points cool but I didn't write anything that isn't clear.

Last edited by acesholdup; 06-04-2011 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:14 PM   #178
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I'll let the "I didn't write anything that isn't clear" statement stand for itself.

I really couldn't care less about "winning points" with anyone here. 2p2 is a time killer for me. My content is quite good though. I'm way away from the most likable poster but I provide pretty solid points in most Live Poker related forums.

The question about what you do for a living is entirely reasonable. You ranted about what you mistakenly assumed I did for a living, after repeatedly bashing the salaries people receive for what they do, because you feel their work isn't deserving. Asking you to provide a comparative basis isn't out of line. If what you do isn't any of our business, then it isn't your business to wrongly assume and post out in the open that I deal in a casino, or to comment that people in this thread who are dealers are the equivalent of McDonald's employees.

I'd wager dollars to cents right now that you're < 25, likely a student, or just removed from being one, and are a "professional poker player" as your form of income.
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:16 PM   #179
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
RE: $1400 tipped in my last 150 hours of play...
What stakes? How do you keep track, just flat out counting of what you tipped? I'm curious. Seems pretty generous. If you won 4 pots an hour (reasonable for a good player at a 30-hands-per-hour table) and averaged $2 a tip (no easy feat considering some pots are small), that'd be $8 hourly, or $1200 over the sample you mentioned.
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:21 PM   #180
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Never thought I'd rather deal tournaments than live...

... then I dealt the WSOP.

(back to my usual tipping subject neutrality or avoidance)
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:45 PM   #181
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I'm sure its been asked b4, but in $1/2, if you win a $6-$12 pot, do dealers get offended if you don't tip?
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:01 PM   #182
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by acesholdup View Post
is not particularly physically demanding
Oh really? Have you ever dealt? Imagine leaning forward approximately 1000 times per shift, it's like doing a ton of sit-ups every day (actually can be a nice workout if you have good posture and don't destroy your back..) Have you ever seen beads of sweat on dealers' heads towards the end of their shift? I dealt for several years and was more tired going home than when I was a restaurant manager working 70+ hour work weeks. Not to mention how mentally demanding dealing is.. Until you have actually sat in the box dealing for a shift, you really can't comment on it.

There is also a much higher rate of carpal tunnel with dealers. Tell the thousands of ex-dealers that have carpal tunnel how not demanding the job was..
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:07 PM   #183
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Bigdawgzuc View Post
I'm sure its been asked b4, but in $1/2, if you win a $6-$12 pot, do dealers get offended if you don't tip?
Most dealers won't get offended if you do not tip on small pots. I would say only a small portion of players do anyway, so it is definitely pretty common to not tip on small pots. That's not to say I didn't really appreciate it when players did tip on small pots.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:08 PM   #184
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

anyone who has time in the box, knows that it sucks and will normally tip well. acesholdup never has and proly tips crappy.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:30 PM   #185
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by BAEVentures View Post
Here's the problem with this though in my two cents...Not all players are tipping like this. So let's say for the 30 minutes you are on my table, I scoop 8 out of 15 pots. You are now getting tipped $2 for 8 hands played... and likely only making ~$7 more from the other hands dealt...

This is my one concern with me transitioning to this method, however, given my LAG style of play, and the number of small pots I win, it's really hurting my WR tipping out for every pot I win...

RE: $1400 tipped in my last 150 hours of play...
I understand where you are coming from. I am just saying as a dealer if that was the standard for all players regardless of pot size that would be great. It would keep the income around the normal average but provide somewhat of a stable income knowing that if you dealt for 6 out of 8 hours (which is the norm where I work) that you would make ~216 unless a game was short. In that case I'm sure that if you are a great dealer some players would throw you a couple extra which would compensate for short tables. I would love to know that I was definately going to make 200 a night
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:03 PM   #186
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Look there are players out there who would be winners if it weren't for tipping- not huge winners but winners. There are fish who would still be in action if it weren't for tipping. With more pros coming in and less fish because the economy dealers should not think that they are going to be immune to changes. Fifteen an hour plus benefits. Period. If you don't like it become a pit boss.

In fact I know at many of the rooms I play in none of the dealers want to move up to management level because they make so much more money than the pit bosses. That's ridiculous. Don't give in to the bogus attitude that the amount you tip indicates how good a person you are. Be fair but don't be a sucker. Don't let the games be drained by these leeches. Keep the money in the game or there will be no game.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:20 PM   #187
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

DEUCES, If I pooled my room of players especially the regs. I bet universally they would rather give me all of their money in tips rather than a socially inept arrogant person who thinks THE Fish ie them are their to donate their hard earned money made outside of cards to you or people like you. Once you sit down none of that money is yours till it gets to the cage. So you have no respect for the dealers no respect for the players who do you respect besides you.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:24 PM   #188
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Deuces McKracken View Post
Look there are players out there who would be winners if it weren't for tipping- not huge winners but winners. There are fish who would still be in action if it weren't for tipping. With more pros coming in and less fish because the economy dealers should not think that they are going to be immune to changes. Fifteen an hour plus benefits. Period. If you don't like it become a pit boss.
Where are these fish who tip so much they broke themselves? I want to deal there.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:34 PM   #189
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Bigdawgzuc View Post
I'm sure its been asked b4, but in $1/2, if you win a $6-$12 pot, do dealers get offended if you don't tip?
Any dealer who shows himself as being offended should be denied tips for this act alone. The dealer should not beg for tips in any way, including showing offense. As this thread shows, there will always be plenty of players to take up the dealer's cause if needed, the dealer should do nothing.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:52 PM   #190
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I never tip if there is no flop. No matter how much the pot is. Just my stupid rule.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:56 AM   #191
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by EdBratz66 View Post
I never tip if there is no flop. No matter how much the pot is. Just my stupid rule.
Pretty normal rule. Plus, if you play only lower stakes games, no flop = stealing blinds only, almost always.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:47 AM   #192
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by flafishy View Post
What they don't understand is that their silence in these cases does affect their tips -- from me. I don't tip dealers who don't make an effort to keep control of a table.
+1 I like your line.

I'm gonna start vocalizing this.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:54 AM   #193
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
Funny enough, I've actually been uber-supportive of your comments in this thread, but I guess me telling someone that tipping $2 on $2000 is enough to make you fly off the handle. Hope you're nice and irate about my membership in the "pro-tipping mafia". Must be a big group, since 99.999999% of people in a casino would be more generous than this.

I'm glad to you that someone making standard, reasonable comments is the one with no life. The same could be said about someone who becomes angry as hell over me making a comment (which included neither name calling nor insults, despite you dumbly posting that it did) over someone's .1% tip.

By the way, nice cherry pick. Make sure to completely ignore the top half of my post, while cutting and pasting the part which allows you to do what you do best, which is to try and come off as the wise, holier than thou know it all here.
+1

Great comment. He's obviously in the "I'm such an awesome player I deserve every last cent I make because I am a poker GOD, dealers deserve nothing, my win rates are awesome mafia".
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:42 AM   #194
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Those of you who believe tipping the dealer is more than just social convention, but rather something that all moral, right-thinking poker players do: Do you tip all minimum wage earners who do anything for you? McDonald's may be a cliche, but it's still a useful example — do you tip the person behind the counter if he's reasonably efficient and friendly?

Assuming not (and I think that's a pretty safe assumption for most of you), then you are demonstrating by your own behavior that this has nothing to do with what people "deserve" or the fact that dealers "depend" on tips — the person working hard at McDonald's is probably at least as deserving in most senses, and depends even more than the dealer on each marginal dollar. Rather, it is about custom and social convention on an individual level, and about different business models on a group level. There is a free rider issue, there are practical issues regarding good dealers staying in the profession and all dealers having sufficient incentive to work hard... but this is not about morality. You've proved it yourself.

Last edited by foxtrot uniform; 06-05-2011 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:45 AM   #195
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by donkitall View Post
+1

Great comment. He's obviously in the "I'm such an awesome player I deserve every last cent I make because I am a poker GOD, dealers deserve nothing, my win rates are awesome mafia".
You really think there is any correlation at all between choosing not to tip as well as you think is appropriate, and thinking one is a good player?
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:50 AM   #196
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
... Must be a big group, since 99.999999% of people in a casino would be more generous than this.
I assume by "99.999999%" you mean "about half, including fewer than half of high stakes players". (Re the high stakes part, there's another thread where that's being discussed right now.)

Why the absurd hyperbole? Why can't everyone just state his position clearly and calmly, without getting all worked up about this? One way or the other, it really isn't important at all whether any given person tips, and isn't very important whether anyone tips. For an individual decision, it's a buck or two now or then, one way or the other. For the group, it's one business model versus a slightly different one. That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it does mean that the righteous indignation and fits of apoplexy are pretty silly.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:33 AM   #197
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

It's impossible to have a rational debate as long as one side is biased (poker dealers). Of course dealers are going to play the violin for themselves and try to justify higher earnings. Nearly every employee in the world will do so when someone takes a shot at their profession.

While I don't blame dealers for being biased, I stand by my earlier remark that they deserve minimum wage. 2OutNoProb proved why in his response, by making excuses on the topic of mistakes. Minimum wage workers point fingers and make excuses; professionals own up to them and ensure they never happen again.
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Old 06-05-2011, 06:58 AM   #198
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

I have the impression that the most vitriolic members of the pro-tipping side are not dealers themselves. (I could be wrong about this.) If I'm right, I truly do not understand the vehemence and vitriol of their arguments.

The argument seems to boil down to "you're evil" on one side and "you're stupid" on the other. Each of these positions is absurd, of course, but they continue to be espoused. It's easier to dismiss the "you're stupid" side, because it's clear that people have the choice to tip, and tip heavily, if they choose and that nothing that makes people feel good about themselves is truly stupid. It's harder to dismiss the "you're evil" side because the argument that failure to tip is immoral is complicated — but when you look deeply into it you realize it's just as ridiculous.
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:51 AM   #199
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrot uniform View Post
Those of you who believe tipping the dealer is more than just social convention, but rather something that all moral, right-thinking poker players do: Do you tip all minimum wage earners who do anything for you? McDonald's may be a cliche, but it's still a useful example — do you tip the person behind the counter if he's reasonably efficient and friendly?
Change your example from McDonald's to a diner or nicer restaurant and does the answer change? When I go to a diner for breakfast and have the $3.99 breakfast special, I tip the waitress. The social convention is that I should tip the waitress at the diner so I do while that same convention does not hold at McDonald's. The last time I was in Vegas the wife and I had dinner at Picasso. The tab was over $400 and I left a significant tip. It would be logical to ask why. One could easily assume that if you drop over $400 for dinner for two the expectation should be top quality service so no additional compensation should be required.

No opinions are going to change in this thread or the larger debate. People who don't want to tip have made up their minds as have the people on the pro tipping side. We can flog the horse, but that's all that is going to happen.

I believe tipping your dealers builds good karma and helps with my table image. And, like those who chose not to tip, it's my choice and my money so everyone else can piss off while I do with it as I please.
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Old 06-05-2011, 07:59 AM   #200
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Cyo View Post
Change your example from McDonald's to a diner or nicer restaurant and does the answer change? When I go to a diner for breakfast and have the $3.99 breakfast special, I tip the waitress. The social convention is that I should tip the waitress at the diner so I do while that same convention does not hold at McDonald's. The last time I was in Vegas the wife and I had dinner at Picasso. The tab was over $400 and I left a significant tip. It would be logical to ask why. One could easily assume that if you drop over $400 for dinner for two the expectation should be top quality service so no additional compensation should be required.
See, that's exactly my point. We tip the minimum wage server at the diner because that's the convention. We don't tip the minimum wage server at the fast food place, because that's the convention. This isn't about who needs the money, nor who deserves the money. It's about what we're expected to do because other people do it, and anyone pretending it's anything more is being obtuse.

Fwiw I give in to convention a fair amount, even though I'm normally an advocate of rationality, I think because it just gets hard to keep bucking the convention. I overtip the waitress at the diner (if she's competent and hard working), and usually undertip at fancy places unless I can tell that it's being split among many people (and I can tell, as I used to do that work myself), unless I have a date with me (in which case I bow to practicality — a date is paying for the opportunity to get some one to like me and maybe to **** me, and tipping is just part of the price), but I don't tip the McDonald's cashier. I tip the dealers a lot of the time, because it's too much work not to, but I never tip any that I think are doing a poor or lazy job, which means between a third and a half of them in most places.
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