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Old 06-02-2011, 01:51 PM   #126
2OutsNoProb
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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I'm fine with giving the dealer money. I just don't like it coming out of my "scoring" for the game i'm playing.
This is fine and dandy and a fair way of commenting about it, but unfortunately, you can't have both. The model isn't changing anytime soon, so you have to pick one or the other. FWIW my diatribe wasn't about you specifically, it was about the dozens of people in these threads who fit exactly what I described
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:51 PM   #127
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Ibuprofen View Post
From experience I know the answer is almost always the men, AINEC. Women do get extra tips by some for "being hot", as you pointed out, but their method relies heavily on socialization. Men typically have a no nonsense approach and get more tables/customers per night. A lot of small tips adds up to more than a few large ones. I imagine it works the same for dealers who issue more hands per hour.

The more expensive the restaurant/bar, the more the gap widens. When I worked fine dining the men would make $100-$250 a night. The women would earn a little more on the low end (slow nights), but never came close to the high end (busy nights).

As a former bartender and server I can attest that men make their cash via hustling and volume. This is not to say that women don't hustle rather that men don't get tipped nearly as frequently just for being attractive.

A woman can be basically throwing her panties at me but that doesn't mean the tip will be good. Women are notoriously tight fisted. I have over a decade of service experience from which I'm drawing this conclusion from.

If I had to choose my perfect bartending scenario in regards to money making it would be a bar packed with mostly 25 to 50 year old men and I'd be partnered behind the bar with an attractive, smart, FAST, personable woman. I crank out the sales while she focuses on schmoozing.

Time has proven this to be the best scenario for my wallet time after time.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:54 PM   #128
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
This is fine and dandy and a fair way of commenting about it, but unfortunately, you can't have both. The model isn't changing anytime soon, so you have to pick one or the other.
Yeah, that's where i think $1 per flop taken is a reasonable compromise. Dealers don't starve and my winrate doesn't plummet.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
FWIW my diatribe wasn't about you specifically, it was about the dozens of people in these threads who fit exactly what I described
No worries, i didn't take it that as aimed at me. But i wanted to point out that there are reasons to care about the effect on winrate besides lack of generosity.
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:08 PM   #129
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
But that's just the point. I'm fine with giving the dealer money. I just don't like it coming out of my "scoring" for the game i'm playing.
Who says the tip needs to come out of the stack you have on the table?
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:16 PM   #130
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Who says the tip needs to come out of the stack you have on the table?
I think he more meant the profitability of the session he's involved in, not necessarily where it came from
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:27 PM   #131
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by juanez View Post
(I copied this from my personal blog)

How Much Do You Tip the Poker Dealers?

This is a sensitive topic for some folks, but it really doesn’t need to be.

Tipping is a personal decision that should be made by the individual poker player. Nobody will force you to tip a poker dealer (the exception being some tournaments where a portion of the buy-in is set aside for the dealers). However, as a former poker dealer myself, I would like to share my personal opinions about tipping your dealer. And my opinion isn't "Tip them a lot!"

The fact of the matter is that poker dealers work for tips (or “tokes” as they are called in the business). Dealers usually make a meager hourly wage from the casino and rely on your tokes to actually make a living, much like a waitress or a bartender. Our poker room pays dealers $4.26 an hour. That’s hardly enough to live on.

So, the age-old question is “How much should I tip a dealer?” As with so many questions, the answer is “it depends”. If you feel that a dealer deserves $1 for the pot that was just pushed your way, then toss him a buck. If you feel like tossing him $5, then do it. If you feel like stiffing him, so be it. Maybe you feel that you should only tip the dealer if the pot you won is over a certain amount. Fine. It’s your choice.

Maybe you feel that a dealer is doing a great job, is entertaining, etc., so he deserves a tip. But maybe the dealer is slow, making a lot of errors, and not being very courteous, so he doesn't deserve one. All of these things can influence how much you tip a poker dealer.

Another age-old question is, “Well I’m playing poker to make money and tipping isn’t required, so why should I do it at all? It cuts into my profit.” This is true; it will cut into your profit. But it’s a bit more complicated than that. Let’s say nobody ever tipped poker dealers. What would happen?

Well, nobody would want to deal the game, that’s for sure. At least nobody competent enough to deal an efficient and accurate game. Nobody who knows the rules and regulations well enough. Nobody who cares enough about the game to make sure it’s run fairly. If you could flip burgers at McDonald’s for more money that a poker dealer makes, who would deal the game?

I suppose the poker room could just increase the rake and take a portion of it for the dealers. How does that sound? Now you ARE forced to tip the dealer, even if it’s the worst dealer in the world who has a bad attitude. I prefer to have the choice of who I tip and who I don’t and how much, thank you very much.

Whatever you choose as far as what to tip, don’t let others at the table influence you. I’ve seen players get angry because another player is stiffing the dealer. Some players will actually go so far as to toss the dealer a buck or two themselves when another player stiffs them then rub it in the face of the stiffer. "This is for the stiff....."

Other players get mad because their opponent tips a lot. The “you tip too much” player may feel that “players money is leaving the table” when someone tips big. Well guess what? It’s that individual players’ money, even if he just won it from you, so he can tip his whole damn stack if he wants.

On a few different occasions when dealing myself I had a player say, “You bring this in and you get half the pot”, and they lived up to their promise. I liked these players as a dealer.

Bottom line: tip what you want. Period.
you refer to every chance to not tip as "stiffing" or being a "stiff", yet say tip whatever you feel they deserve. its not stiffing them if i dont feel they deserve a tip.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:32 PM   #132
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by QuadsOverQuads View Post
OK: all in favor of a "no tipping + 5bb rake" system?

Anyone?


q/q
ME!

I'll take 5% with a $10 max with no tipping in 1-2NL instead of $6 + Tip / per hand, yes. I'm sure people in CA would jump at this compared to their current rake system.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:54 PM   #133
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
ME!

I'll take 5% with a $10 max with no tipping in 1-2NL instead of $6 + Tip / per hand, yes. I'm sure people in CA would jump at this compared to their current rake system.
Yeah.. you'd have to get to a $140 pot before you'd be paying the overage, so i'd think that would make sense. I'd make the same choice for Detroit (10% to $6, standard).

I didn't even mention the BBJ dollar as a cost in the present system, because over a million lifetimes you'll get all those back -- minus whatever you [re]tip on the BBJ, of course.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:03 PM   #134
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Yeah.. you'd have to get to a $140 pot before you'd be paying the overage, so i'd think that would make sense. I'd make the same choice for Detroit (10% to $6, standard).

I didn't even mention the BBJ dollar as a cost in the present system, because over a million lifetimes you'll get all those back -- minus whatever you [re]tip on the BBJ, of course.
This becomes less ideal in a number of other games, especially limit games, where, 8-16 LHE has a cap of $80 if the system is described correctly.

1-2NL, OTOH....
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:26 PM   #135
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

can someone summarize some kind of consensus on this topic please? IMO tipping seems to be an accepted convention so dispensing with the social philosophy about job performance and use of customer discretion when performance is subpar or above par, then, ... since tournament tipping is different from cash game tipping: suggest a consensus range for each.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:45 PM   #136
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by QuietBen View Post
since tournament tipping is different from cash game tipping: suggest a consensus range for each.
Cash game: $1 per pot, more for "big pots", nothing for "tiny pots"

Split-pot cash game: $1 for more than half the pot, usually $1 for half unless it was a heads-up for most streets or otherwise "tiny" pot; nothing for less than half.

Tournaments: 3%-5%, minus any dealer add-on taken out beforehand

BBJ: <= 5%

Anyone disagree that this is consensus among 2+2 users?
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:47 PM   #137
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Cash game: $1 per pot, more for "big pots", nothing for "tiny pots"

Tournaments: 3%-5%, minus any dealer add-on taken out beforehand

BBJ: <= 5%

Anyone disagree that this is consensus among 2+2 users?
Seems right to me....

Although I tip $1 per pot in cash games regardless of the size.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:01 PM   #138
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Seems right to me....

Although I tip $1 per pot in cash games regardless of the size.
I tend to tip $1 for any raked pot. If I am feeling frisky I will tip $2 if I felt someone, but this is all preference. I've seen someone tip 20+ every hand he won anything more than 20+, so its really just up to the player, but I think overall some sort of tip is necessary.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:02 PM   #139
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

5% on a BBJ is too high by 2X. Period.

50/25/25 split on a BBJ with 9 players on the table.

Say $112K in the pot.
5% gives the dealer $5,600
Table share would be $4000. And a tax form. $1000 or so to the Govt and $200 to the dealer leaves $2,800.

If you really think a dealer deserves to net twice as much as a table share, fine. I don't.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:08 PM   #140
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Angus has a good point here.

Giving the dealer that much on a BBJ hand seems bizarre simply because they happened to be the one lucky enough to deal the hand. The players deserve the lions share of the BBJ money, they're the ones who contributed to it.

Quote:
Seems right to me....

Although I tip $1 per pot in cash games regardless of the size.
Playing 1/2 NL, you end up playing for stacks when you're deep, say, $300, against the same effective stack, and win, in a pot which is raised where there's dead money preflop. Pot ends up being $650-$700, of which $325-$350 is profit. Pot takes 4, 5, or 6 minutes to play out as opposed to the average 2, which means the dealer gets a couple less hands in during his down. You tip $1 here?
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:09 PM   #141
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

Tournaments are very situation dependent.

Say a one table satellite/sitNgo. Takes one hour. Winner take all.

How much you tip? 5%? If it is a $1000 buy in? You going to tip $500 for an hour's work?

Again, the major problem in live MTTs is that you cannot find out how your tip gets chopped.
First, the "staff" might get some.
Second, how many dealer/hours does it get chopped into?
Third, how much are the dealers getting already from the rake or targeted takeouts?
Give me the numbers, I can make an informed decision.

To blindly say "X%" does not take into account the wide variation of tournament situations.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:05 AM   #142
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
I didn't even mention the BBJ dollar as a cost in the present system, because over a million lifetimes you'll get all those back -- minus whatever you [re]tip on the BBJ, of course.
It's not just tipping out of the bad beat jackpot; there are other reasons to consider the jackpot drop to be an extra dollar rake:
  • Most casinos take money out of the BBJ for other promotions that do not all directly benefit players.
  • At many casinos there is poor account of, and therefore theft from, BBJs.
  • 75% of a BBJ goes to players who were involved in the hand, and most 2p2ers are probably less likely than average to be involved in a BBJ hand.
  • Even to the extent the BBJ does come back, it tends to come in very large chunks, and most people have declining utility of money when the numbers get large. In other words, for most people a 1 in 1000 chance at $250,000 is worth considerably less than a certain $250.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:15 AM   #143
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Cash game: $1 per pot, more for "big pots", nothing for "tiny pots"

Split-pot cash game: $1 for more than half the pot, usually $1 for half unless it was a heads-up for most streets or otherwise "tiny" pot; nothing for less than half.

Tournaments: 3%-5%, minus any dealer add-on taken out beforehand

BBJ: <= 5%

Anyone disagree that this is consensus among 2+2 users?
You're still tipping 3-5% when they already take 3%ish out of the prize pool, pre DAO ?
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:39 AM   #144
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by Pork Fri Rize View Post
You're still tipping 3-5% when they already take 3%ish out of the prize pool, pre DAO ?
Are you talking vigorish or something else? I assume 10% vigorish to be comparable to what i paid online in days of yore.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:44 AM   #145
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by foxtrot uniform View Post
It's not just tipping out of the bad beat jackpot; there are other reasons to consider the jackpot drop to be an extra dollar rake:
  • Most casinos take money out of the BBJ for other promotions that do not all directly benefit players.
  • At many casinos there is poor account of, and therefore theft from, BBJs.
  • 75% of a BBJ goes to players who were involved in the hand, and most 2p2ers are probably less likely than average to be involved in a BBJ hand.
  • Even to the extent the BBJ does come back, it tends to come in very large chunks, and most people have declining utility of money when the numbers get large. In other words, for most people a 1 in 1000 chance at $250,000 is worth considerably less than a certain $250.
All good points. I hope my local BBJ fund isn't getting robbed, but in Detroit nothing would surprise me.

To your last point -- I get the economic theory, but psychology belies your point as evidenced by 50% payback lotteries. Also, many of use could employ a BBJ score as bankroll to play at a level where we could win more.

It's certainly not a dollar rake (corresponding to zero probability of ever winning anythng). Maybe 25c rake.
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Old 06-03-2011, 01:26 AM   #146
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

The psychology of declining utility varies. The "lottery effect", wherein large amounts are worth as much or more to people per dollar than small amounts, kicks in only at pretty high levels for some people, much lower for others. In other words, a 1 in 10,000,000 shot at $10 million may be worth a dollar, or even more, to some people while a 1 in 100,000 shot at $100K is worth less than a dollar, while for other people the cheaper ticket is also worth a buck. Basically, some people play scratchers and keno while others would never consider doing that but do buy tickets to the megamillions.

You're right that it all adds up to the $1 BBJ drop being some smaller amount of rake. I'd say maybe 50˘, but the details aren't as important as recognizing that it's some but not all. Matters more in those (thankfully rare) places where they drop $2 for the jackpot.
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:03 AM   #147
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by 2OutsNoProb View Post
This. x10000000. Best sentence in the entire thread. Just once I'd like to see someone man enough to say, "I don't tip because I don't like giving the dealer extra money when I want it for myself instead". A couple of people have come pretty close, saying things like "it dents my stack and damages my bottom line so why should I if I don't want to", but most of the stuff is contrived self-serving utter nonsense. People go into pages and pages of "tipping model" breakdowns, run their own cherry-picked math fifty times, fire off boatloads of excuses about putting a ton of thought into how service people perform at their job, blah blah blah. Everyone knows it's just ridiculous and a way of covering up their simply not wanting to give the dealer money. Bottom line.

If you don't want to tip because making max money at the table is important to you, that's fine. It's your right. Simply say this and spare us all the deep thought. This is akin to the sunglasses-at-the-table threads where everyone in favor of them fires off 800 excuses about lighting, eye problems, comfort levels, massive physical tells, etc etc etc, when the real reason 99.7% of the time is that the person watched ESPN WSOP, saw a pro wearing glasses, thought it was cool, and started doing it. However, you will never hear anyone say this.
I wish I could add something to this, but you've said it all. That's exactly what's going on here. Very, very well said.


q/q
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:09 AM   #148
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
ME!

I'll take 5% with a $10 max with no tipping in 1-2NL instead of $6 + Tip / per hand, yes. I'm sure people in CA would jump at this compared to their current rake system.
Dude, for someone who posts as much as you do, you really should be working on a way to move up higher than 1/2 entry-level games.

What about people who play 1/3? 2/5? 5/10?

5bb rake in those games would be $15, $25 and $50 per hand, respectively.


q/q
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:20 AM   #149
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

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Most casinos take money out of the BBJ for other promotions that do not all directly benefit players.
And this illustrates why 2+2'ers should NEVER run poker rooms.

"directly benefit".

Argh.

The whole point of promotions is to GENERATE BUSINESS.

Everyone benefits.

But yes, the benefit -- which is HUGE -- is technically "indirect". Because even if you don't hit the jackpot yourself on any given day, you continue to benefit from playing in a room filled with people *who came to play because of that BBJ*.

OTOH, if "indirect" benefits (even when HUGE) bother you, there is a simple method I have figured out where you can pay zero rake and zero BBJ and never suffer a bad beat and never lose a dime at a table: just sit in an empty room and don't play. Totally EV neutral. All you have to do is remove all the upside potential.


q/q
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:33 AM   #150
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Re: Tipping CONTAINMENT thread.

just the "not giving off tells" section of the sunglass analogy makes up way more than .3% of the people wearing them.

Tipping becomes not worth it in higher games because the dealers' expectations are insane that's by far the #1 reason I don't tip very well and really think it's the reason most people playing above red chip don't tip well.
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