Of course. This is America. It is supply and demand. The same way a restaurant charges as much as it possibly can for IT'S food, while still keeping they're customers. So again, why are you singling out poker rooms/dealers, and not busy argueing these points on a restaurant/waitressing forum?

and if you were SO concerned about the underpayment of employess, or the "over raking" you would protest by NOT GOING TO THE POKER ROOM.

I've just never understood it when I see someone bitching and moaning to employees about pricing in any kind of business, but yet still returning to that same place of business. If you have a problem with the costs of a business. then simply DO NOT RETURN to that business. If enough people do that, then they'll be FORCED to change they're costs. If NOT enough people do that. Then obviously the pricing is fair.

That is what the free market is about.

So then what IS your point?

Perhaps you could state your point too.

Mine is that people should tip what the feel is right, with full knowledge of the situation.

Mine is that people should not be called greedy, life nits, d-bags, etc, just because they do not tip to the level that someone else feels is required.

Mine is that people telling posters that a 10% tip on a BBJ or tournament win is "standard" are being less than honest.

Mine is that in the non-standard situations (BBJ and tournaments), many players come here asking for information and instead get 37 posts of rant.

Once again, you're busy putting words in my mouth; and expressing sentiments that I simply don't share.

My interest in this thread is multifaceted.

Primarily, I find the tipping culture (where we've established some jobs are tip-worthy while obvious analogs to those jobs aren't) silly. I expect that the cost of goods and services would remain overall the same if tips were rolled into costs - but it'd certainly be much more honest. The way we do it now (a waiter gets paid more for delivering a lobster than a BLT) is, frankly, dumb.

Tipping, overall, as incentive, when used correctly, makes perfect sense: "Hey, valet, here's some extra - please keep my car close, I won't be in long."

Tipping, overall, to reward good service, when used correctly, makes some sense: "Wow, that was a great lap-dance, here's $20 extra." The service is over, but at least you're rewarding someone for a job well-done.

Tipping, overall, to merely augment someone's payis just silly. Ah, yes, thank you for performing your primary job function for which your employer underpays you. Despite having paid your employer a sum of money enough for him to make a healthy profit, I shall now provide a part of your pay as by custom. "Here, please take an additional 20% of my pre-tax dinner bill."

Do I understand the financial implications? Do I understand that, perhaps, in a restaurant (where bottom lines are tougher) that if they had to pay the servers a fair wage that the cost of my beloved Club Sandwich would rise by 15%? Yes. Yes, I do. ...but I'd still rather pay for the sandwich and the labor involved without a wink-wink-handshake-social-custom deal on the side.

...because I believe it creates a world full of people who expect the money. Look at this thread for proof. Dealers look at the tips as their money, and any time someone doesn't tip - they assume they've been stolen from. ...or at least enough dealers to leave a sour taste in the mouths of many.

--

Further, I simply enjoy a good discussion. I dislike seeing fasehoods and lies in the threads like, "Oh, the rake would go up" -- or at minimum lets call them "unsubstantiated claims."

My tipping policies are well documented early in this thread in bullet-point detail. Read them and call me cheap if you like; but I'm not hiding behind anything, and I'm not afraid to tell it like I see it.

I have never understood tipping the cashiers in the poker room when cashing in chips.
You woudn't tip a Mcdonalds cashier or Walmart cashier.

The dealer is in the middle of working at his job while he's at the table, the player isn't in 99.5% of cases at low to mid stakes games. The tips are his salary, the money in the player's stack isn't his salary. Thus, different logic applies to "wanting" the money.

You're not going to get flamed, since tipping decisions are your own to make (and as has been made clear in this thread there are obviously people who would have left $0), but this is obviously on the cheap end and you know it, otherwise you wouldn't have posted this.

You could be right about management affecting the money more. But why do you keep repeating this line, that "no one complains about management"? There are threads all over this forum all the time where people rant and rave about how rooms are managed poorly. Any live table you're at, a convo breaks out about how one room is better than another because of management doing XYZ or not doing XYZ. People complain about management constantly.

You keep referring to people in favor of tipping as "your side" as if one is the North and one's the South in the Civil War. The anti-tipping model side seems to consist of two main people in this entire thread, both of whom admit to tipping anyway. Once every few days, maybe one or two other people chime in with a single post that is anti-tipping. This is a one-sided argument, almost nobody has a problem with tipping. You and AngusT are the only two who do do, but you close every post anyway by telling us that you still tip in order to convince us that you aren't cheap. If you went to a room with 10 ten-handed 1/2 NL tables, 95 of the 100 people would be tipping and have zero problem with it.

I only remind posters of my personal stance on tipping because they regularly (and ignorantly) accuse me of not tipping, or suggest that I advocate simply not tipping. I simply want them to understand my point, and imagine that they haven't read the thousand plus posts leading up to this one.

I understand, follow, and dislike the social custom.

I'm in favor of making educated choices in my gratuities. For me, knowing how much of a tournament add-on already goes to the staff, for example -- or how much dealers actually make (I've counted), provides me with the information I use to freely choose what to donate.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who knows me who'd describe me as cheap.

Well, they're fools then and should learn to read.. Let the record show that although we have jousted on this topic, I have clearly noticed that you are a tipper, and have said so many times. You have made it clear to me at least that the system is where your issue lies.

I'm sure I wouldn't find anyone. I don't think you are either. You've said that you tip most hands other than tiny preflop pots or 4xBB uncontested flop pots etc, so that seems more than fine to me. There are some people in this thread and others like it who do come off cheap, by way of announcing that they never tip or feel overly generous giving $1-on-$306 or whatever. My comments on people being false when they talk about tipping models and such aren't necessarily about you. I'm sure some people are morally opposed to the system, but let's be honest, many people simply don't want to part with money.

This strawman argument has already been debunked a dozen or two times in this thread.


A) The house is already charging the maximum rake they can. Whether the house can find dealers willing to work for $1 per hour or has to cough up $40 per hour to attract staff, they'll still charge the max rake they can.


B) Regardless, it's not relevant to the tip discussion. The rake is between the player and the house (dealer has no say). Tipping is between the player and the dealer (house has no say). Dealer pay is between the dealer and the house (player has no say).



.

Players complaining about Management is different from dealers complaining about Management.

Find a thread where players complain about how Management decisions are hurting the dealers.

Find many dealer who stand up to their own Management. Or should I say, their former employers.

Sure, you will see "I don't work full time", "Don't forget dead spreads", and "I have to deal lousy tournaments several times a week" on some threads. Mostly as a way to guilt trip players into tipping more.

Eh, Money's money.

I stand by this.

I dont complain about the few non tippers because like i said - it all averages out. If the poker world stopped tipping though i think you'd see a giant decline in dealers and would be much more upset with the level of service you are receiving.

I hate tipping. The reason I hate tipping is because it's such a hush hush thing, and there are no rules written down on how to tip. I tip very well, but sometimes I'm confused on when to tip or who to tip. I.e. Take out person at a restaurant, full service gas station, I feel like these days every where you go people are looking for tips. As far as dealers go, I always tip when there is a flop, and I never tip when there isn't. That's the rule I have established. Dealers please tell me if that's acceptable. If j win $3 preflop it's hard for me to justify giving a toke there, but mentally I keep track and will give an extra buck here or there.

Hate to inform you but my wins are my income and playing 1/3 or 2/5 is the average game in Tunica unless tourneys are in town. But I have never understood tipping more on larger pots, the dealer does the same work on a $20pot as he does for a $200 pot so why do they expect more with larger pots?

AngusThermopyle seems like a very wise man. Maybe some of us could take the emotion out of our posts and actually try to follow his very logical and reasonable arguments

More chips to count down etc...

Yeah but everyone doesn't need to be a robot tipper. Some people just like to give rather than calculate.

I don't tip %'s, I tip whatever I feel like tipping. I try to give to help out people.. it seems like he tips based on some calculations (and guilt or w/e).

But it's worse to be a stiff nmw.

* I think I may have confused him with Palimax, the bullet point tipper?

I have a list of bullet-points, but no, I don't follow them like they're the word of god, written on stone tablets.

They simply concisely summarize how I tip in a casino.

Third grade math that takes less than one minute does not justify an other dollar in tips.

It's the same reason you tip 3x as much for a lobster as you do for a salmon.

*shrug*

I will explain why, when its 3 players or even HU on a big pot, and that hand is taking 5 minutes...cause you're trying to Hollywood or whatever the case might be... Trust me i play too and know sometimes its hard to make a call or a fold. But its expected more on bigger pots, cause those usually take extra time and dealer could have gotten another 3-4 hands out if it wasnt for that hand that "stalled" action

Bigger pots don't always take more time sometimes it is faster as in an all-in preflop hand. AA vs KK for example big pot but less time.