I keep hearing dealers whine that the tournament "staff appreciation " isn't enough of a tip for dealers because it gets split up amongst staff. Comments like this make me want to tip less.

When a player pays the rake (or time), they've paid for the services.


How are you not understanding this?

(Wanting to keep what is already yours != greedy. Wanting what belongs to someone else does = greedy.)


When a carpenter comes over to my house, I'll have him give me an estimate. Then I'll either agree or not agree to that price. If I agree to that price, that's the price I'll pay.




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okay so now we make the carpenter example actually work... he gives you an estimate with a total parts listing and 0 charges for labor and says you decide what to pay him for labor. Welcome to the world of dealing.

Tip less then. If they are complaining, they don't deserve it, and they should be qualified to find an equally well paying job otherwise.

There is very simple solution to this.
IF you hear a dealer complaining about tipping in any form or fashion, find a shift manager and report them.

Period.

Problem is I don't know how much I will end up paying for labor. It's not like in other cases where I can decide how much exactly I plan to pay. Payment is done in increments while still receiving the service and depends on how many pots I win. Stands to reason that in order to insure I get the best of service I should be tipping when I'm done playing and get up from the table regardless of how well my results were and only dependant on how good of a service I received.

I'm a regular tipper. I was pushed a pot and while I was stacking it a daler grabbed a white chip out of it and said "thank you."

I laughed.

Still doesn't work.

I do not contract with the dealer.

I contract with the House. The House charges me $5 a hand. You go to work for the House, knowing that the majority of your income depends on:
1. Total number of hours you are in an "earning situation", ie, in the box dealing.
2. The generosity of others.

#1, your Boss, the House, only lets you work 4 days a week. They overstaff so you only get 5 hours a shift in the box. That's 20 hrs a week. If your Boss,the House, gave you 5 shifts and staffed properly so you got 6 hrs per day, you would have 30 hrs a week where you could collect tips. That is a 50% increase. But do I hear complaints about Management?

#2, it is generosity. The players don't owe you anything. They tip out of appreciation or out of habit. It is the sense of entitlement to $X per pot (more on bigger pots) when the table is already paying up to $200 per hour in drop, that irks a lot of people. And the more displeasure that dealers let show, the lower their tips will be over the long run. Some don't get it. Some do.

Might be a tad on the nitty side. Seems like some people might want to get more enjoyment out of life than running around to casino personnel and telling on employees they don't know for something that is completely harmless and irrelevant.

Then again, this is B+M, home of the life ultra-nit, so who knows.

That's not quite the analogy either.


The carpenter analogy would be more like this: A General Contractor gives me an estimate to build a deck, we agree and I hire him to do the job. The GC subs the work to a carpenter and then the carpenter comes whining that he's not happy with what he's being paid and wants more.

To which I say fine, maybe he's right, maybe he's not. Either way, it's an issue he needs to take up with the GC.

That's the carpenter analogy.




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Yeah I don't really feel comfortable doing that. I seem to get brushed off by the floor if I do nit-pick about stuff. I've just decided to visit CAZ less and less lately. I'll still play the occasional tourney, but I don't plan on leaving any large tips until I stop hearing dealers whine (especially the bad ones).

Brick and Mortar.. You mean Bitch and Moan?

I can see that there would be reasons for a poker player to refrain from tipping. In most cases it would deal with bmr or a lack of one -- someone trying to build a roll, for example.

But beyond that, I myself, can't relate. I'd have to have been born under different circumstances to think another way.

I've been part of "that system" my whole life. I would never say it's a good system (it's clearly flawed), but as dealers and players, it's what we have to deal with. In that regard, I've always looked at dealers as the player who's been forced to sit out and deal. He's one of us and we should take of each other. IMO.

I'm really trying to understand the points you guys are trying to make, and where you are coming from, but I'm having trouble. Please answer this list of questions to help me understand what you're point is.


If a waitress spends an hour and a half bringing you food/drinks/delivering excellent customer service to your table...


1) Would you say that you have paid the menu price for the food, and that your only contract is with the restaurant?

2) Is the waitress greedy if she wants to get paid gratuity for her services? Because she wants YOUR money?

3) If the waitress gets 0% tip after this situation, is it ok if she's upset about that? Or does that make her "ungrateful" and "unnapreciative"?

4) If you left her $1 dollar on a $200 is that only out of your generousity, and she should be happy to get anything?

5) Would you not agree that if you ENTER a restaurant(or poker room for that matter) that you are thereby AGREEING to the "tipping model" and that unless you recieve inadequete service(in wich case refusing to tip is fine) that, if you recieve good service, you are somewhat obligated to tip because you walked into the restaurant KNOWING the deal, and chose to enter anyway?

6) Is it JUST poker dealers you have a problem with? or is it every tipped service industry proffession?

7) Do you have an active debate like this going on at some waitress forum? Or is it just poker dealers your singling out?

Dealers are not wait staff.

The money players are charged by the house to play (rake) goes to pay dealers a fair wage (based on education, experience, expertise, demand , etc.) Additional money to the personnel is not required because they're already being taken care of via the fees in place.

The cost of service in a restaurant is not built into the price of the meal. Rather, it is added by the consumer to compensate the staff after services have been rendered.

The two do not equate. But you know all this already. It's all very basic and you're very smart. You're a dealer!

<Snip>

dealers make $4.25/hour, guy. The EXACT same below min. wage salary that waitress's make.

The cost of service in a Poker Room is not built into the price of the rake. Rather, it is added by the consumer to compensate the staff after services have been rendered.

You don't know d*ck. Quit avoiding the questions.

If this is true, you're being taken advantage of, and that's sad. But as unfortunate as that is for you, the way the system is structured, it is not the players responsibility to make you whole.

Do you have that same attitude to ALL service industry tipped positions(i.e. waitresses, bartenders, bellhops, valets) or is it JUST poker dealers that you single out?

This thread is (mostly) about tipping poker dealers.

Your refusal to acknowledge (or inability to understand) the difference between dealing and the other professions you list is unfortunate. But it doesn't change the reality that players pay a fee to play, and this fee goes to paying dealers salaries in full. Tips should not be expected in this case.

That's because there IS NO difference. Please explain what makes being a poker dealer any different then the other service industry jobs I've listed.

Do you guys see my point??

None of the anti-tipping guys provide any kind of logical argument. They just say little one-liner answers that dont make any sense.

It just sounds like. "Me no like tipping because it hurts my 1/2nl winrate. Me shouldnt have to tip poker dealers."

If any of you guys have any REAL arguments, please respond to my list of questions a couple of posts back, and I will be glad to answer any questions you guys wanna pose to me.

How do you figure that?

Dealers make the same minimum wage or less that wait staff makes.

Not everywhere in Tunica they make around $7.50 per hour so I'm sure there are other casinos paying that also.

In a restaurant you're paying for the food, and the tip is for the service.
In a casino you're paying for the service, and the tip is... ...hey, wait a minute.

No, you are not.



Yes, obviously you are. But it's not even remotely for the reasons you think.


OK


Strictly speaking, yes. Especially yes if the server displayed entitlement attitude at any time during the meal.



I didn't invoke the "greedy" word. I just insist on pointing out that that is a two way street. You can't have one side without the other.

When players start insisting on pulling a dollar OUT of your tip box with each pot, well then yeah, feel free to call them greedy.



Yes. N/A. N/A. (think about it)



Any tip is a function of generosity regardless of amount. Her degree of "happiness" is entirely up to her. I presume no "should" power over her state of mind.



No. Absolutely not.



I can't claim to have interacted with all tipped service industries professions. However based on all those that I have interacted with so far, I think I would have to say yes, it is JUST poker dealers.



No. As previous, so far it just seems to be poker dealers.


Now, I'm willing to admit my personal experience probably has a lot of gaps. With that being said, so far by my personal experience, it has only been poker dealers where I have encountered such a blatant entitlement attitude.

For all I know, it may very well be a fact that every single tip worker I've encountered had every bit of that exact attitude. But if they do, they seem to have sense enough to hide it rather than flaunt it.



And finally, for a little perspective, no matter how many analogies you dream up, there's no way you can hide how much money the house is raking off the table every hour. Depending on particulars, anywhere from $120 to $200 per hour (plus jackpot, but that's another discussion).

Players ARE paying top dollar. Arguments attempting to portray players as being greedy or wanting champagne on a beer budget just don't fly. The players are already paying for the champagne and then some.




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25 cents per hour more than minimun wage, wow that's impressive.
I bet the dealers turn down tips there.

So a waitress deserves a tip on top of her minimum wage but a dealer should be able to live just fine on minimum wage?

Me, personally, Ihve never 'flaunted' any kind of 'sense of entitlement' while on the job. And honostly(and I play ALOT of live poker) I'm hard pressed to come up with a time where I've EVER seen a dealer complain about a tip, or flaunt any kind of 'ense of entiltement' to a player at the table. I cant think of any time where I've seen them do anything but say 'Thank you' and drop the tip. Have you had many experiences where a dealer complained about a tip at the table? Because I have never seen it.but if I did I would completely
agree that that is totally unproffessional, and would negatively(rightly so) affect the tips they get in the future. and could even cost them they;re job.

These are the points that I vehemently disagree with. I believe that, while I didn't sign any document that says I owe money to the server they're services, I believe in something called a SOCIAL CONTRACT, that need not be put into writing, that when I walk into a restaurant and take up an hour of a servers time, and willfully except they're service, I OWE them money. As far as I'm concerned, and I think MOST of sane society is concerned, the server is entitled to a tip from the outset, and it is up to them to lose it, if they have really poor service. But if the service is good. I knew the deal going into the restaurant and I agreed to a NONVERBAL social contract by entering that restaurant. After all, it is a free country, and if I did'nt want to be SERVED my food, I could have stayed home and cooked for myself.

And if someone serves you with excellence and proffesionalism, and you leave a dollar on a 200$ check, YOU ARE NOT BEING GENEROUS, like you believe, you are being an *******.



This is ridiculous. That's like going to Ruths Chris, and saying "Im already paying top dollar for this steak, Im not going to tip ON TOP OF THAT" If you feel that casinos rake too much, then you DONT HAVE TO COME IN. If you feel you are being overchged, you should protest this by NOT COMING IN and not giving them your business. But to come in anyway and take it out on the staff, is just in my opinion a scumbag move. Again, you have a choice, to come into the casino or not.

So, all in all, I think we just see things differently. But I take solice in the fact that I think most of society would agree with me. And that most of society would call a person with your 'tip philosophy' and your general disposition towards service staff, a cheap person.